Andrew Swallow wrote: > Alexander wrote: >> Ray O'Hara wrote: >>> "Andrew Swallow" <am.swal...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message >>> news:MeGdnT81La1NBG7XnZ2dnUVZ8kVi4p2d@bt.com... >>>> Ray O'Hara wrote: >>>>> the Army just admitted he was alive and in stable condition.
>>>> Oh dear. That means that the Army is going to have to put him on >>>> trial. A BIG MESS.
>>>> Andrew Swallow
>>> and then execute him.
>> Gitmo first!
> Gitmo is for crimes committed outside the USA by non-US citizens. > The interrogators will have to permit him to give up his right > to silence in the jail house.
> The situation is also such as to permit me an exception to my liberal, > tolerant views on No Death Penalty In Ordinary Civil Society.
Now WHY is that? I'd like to hear just why THIS "situation" is different. is there some set level of killings that he exceeded? What is your reasoning?
On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 06:46:21 -0600, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote:
>Now WHY is that? I'd like to hear just why THIS "situation" is different. >is there some set level of killings that he exceeded? >What is your reasoning?
The existing statutes mostly draw the line between one and two.
>>>> Are they dancing in the streets over there again, like on 9/11?
>>> Where's 'over there' this time?
>> even you should be able to figure that out Bill.
> Well no.
> The last time they were dancing in the streets 'over there', the place > designated as 'over there' had little or no connection with US forces.
> --
the middle east Bill. they were jubilant in Tehran, Damascus, Riyard and other places we don't have troops. even the ones we haven't attacked dislike the west.
> : > :> : > :> : explain your objection to the word admitted? > :> :{this should be funny} > :> : > :> > :> Were they trying to claim something else and then 'admitted' the > :> truth? No. > : > :Can you prove that "no"? Fact, they had him in custody for 7 hours > :and knew he was alive and knew reports were going out (false ones) > :that reported the shooter dead. So why the delay on the correction? > :
> Perhaps because it's not their job to 'correct' the story and they > might have wanted to know if he was actually going to live before they > said he was going to live.
yes it is their job to correct the story. the Army is a public institution.
> On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:57:59 +0000, William Black
> <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > >> The American public will demand vengeance. An Execution will be a > >> political necessity. I wonder where he can find a Jew Lawyer?
> >So.
> >As always you can be relied on to produce something deeply offensive to > >everyone concerned.
> What do you expect from someone who posts with a name like that?
> To digress somewhat, why should the US get the eagle, while Canada > gets those vermin, Canada geese? Hardly seems fair.
> Casady
Have you ever eaten both or either of those birds properly prepared?
Canada geese are vermin. they are quite the problem here in Massachusetts. the ones we have are the decendents of live decoys and in the last 20 years have had a huge population boom and they don't know howw to fly south so we are stuck with them year round.
> There is a certain story line coming out in news reports where > people said he felt discriminated against. Full college and graduate > study from the Army and a fast track to major doesn't sound like an > official policy of discrimination.
I'm not sure about the "fast track to major". I think that is probably the normal progression for doctors. Like for nurses I believe it is quick to captain, but hard to advance after that.
>> There is a certain story line coming out in news reports where >> people said he felt discriminated against. Full college and graduate >> study from the Army and a fast track to major doesn't sound like an >> official policy of discrimination.
> I'm not sure about the "fast track to major". I think that is probably > the normal progression for doctors. Like for nurses I believe it is > quick to captain, but hard to advance after that.
> >> There is a certain story line coming out in news reports where > >> people said he felt discriminated against. Full college and graduate > >> study from the Army and a fast track to major doesn't sound like an > >> official policy of discrimination.
> > I'm not sure about the "fast track to major". I think that is probably > > the normal progression for doctors. Like for nurses I believe it is > > quick to captain, but hard to advance after that.
> I believe you are correct on that.
> - nilita
There was a TV show about a Navy doctor. They had real trouble trying to show how successful he was by "promoting" him every year. It became obvious after three years that as a captain (Navy) he was almost too senior to work in a hospital. I had a Captain dentist and he had forgotten more about dentistry than any one.
Fred J. McCall wrote: > William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> :frank wrote: > : > :> In any case, this guy ain't going loose any time soon. IF he doesn't > :> get the death penalty, he'll never get out. > : > :They said a lot of stuff like that about IRA men, but they're all out > :now... > :
> We're not you and he ain't the IRA.
The first is true, the second isn't...
-- William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
>>>>> Are they dancing in the streets over there again, like on 9/11? >>>> Where's 'over there' this time?
>>> even you should be able to figure that out Bill.
>> Well no.
>> The last time they were dancing in the streets 'over there', the place >> designated as 'over there' had little or no connection with US forces.
>> --
> the middle east Bill. they were jubilant in Tehran, Damascus, Riyard and > other places we don't have troops. > even the ones we haven't attacked dislike the west.
As far as I'm aware only Arabs in occupied Palestine were jubilant.
-- William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 06:46:21 -0600, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov> > wrote:
>>Now WHY is that? I'd like to hear just why THIS "situation" is different. >>is there some set level of killings that he exceeded? >>What is your reasoning?
> The existing statutes mostly draw the line between one and two.
> Casady
I want to hear Alan's reasoning.
He says he's against the DP for civilian crimes,but makes an exception in this case.
Besides,this is not even a civilian case.It happened on a military base,by an active-duty military,on other military personnel.
> > On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 06:46:21 -0600, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov> > > wrote:
> >>Now WHY is that? I'd like to hear just why THIS "situation" is different. > >>is there some set level of killings that he exceeded? > >>What is your reasoning?
> > The existing statutes mostly draw the line between one and two.
> > Casady
> I want to hear Alan's reasoning.
> He says he's against the DP for civilian crimes,but makes an exception in > this case.
> Besides,this is not even a civilian case.It happened on a military base,by > an active-duty military,on other military personnel.
> -- > Jim Yanik > jyanik > at > localnet > dot com
He shot a civilian police officer, who had been called to the base as back up help. From this article I can't tell if the fire and police on the base are civilian or not.
Fred J. McCall wrote: > William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> : > :As far as I'm aware only Arabs in occupied Palestine were jubilant. > :
> Reality doesn't seem limited by your awareness...
Cite please, about the dancing only...
-- William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
Fred J. McCall wrote: > William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> :Fred J. McCall wrote: > :> William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > :> > :> :frank wrote: > :> : > :> :> In any case, this guy ain't going loose any time soon. IF he doesn't > :> :> get the death penalty, he'll never get out. > :> : > :> :They said a lot of stuff like that about IRA men, but they're all out > :> :now... > :> : > :> > :> We're not you and he ain't the IRA. > :> > : > :The first is true, the second isn't... > :
> You think this Muslim major is a member of the IRA?
I think he's a criminal.
I think the IRA were criminals.
-- William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
> > My sympathies lie instinctively with the victims of this poor, sad, > > sorry murderous buffoon, and their families.
> > The situation is also such as to permit me an exception to my liberal, > > tolerant views on No Death Penalty In Ordinary Civil Society.
> He's a skull plumber, and so probably as batty as a bed bug.
> This is not normal behaviour for a psychiatrist and US Army major...
> -- > William Black
> "Any number under six"
> The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of > Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat > single handed with a quarterstaff.
CNN had some reports that the guy was going on during Grand Rounds at Walter Reed with a long screed on what Muslims think of the infidel. Not only off topic but pretty much a WTF medical moment. One of the other docs who also was a Muslim called him on it and said he was pretty much all wet.
whether that should have raised red flags, there were people who were just as nutty about being saved and Bible beating at inappropriate moments.
Unfortunately in the US we put up with a lot of this stuff.
> >>>> Are they dancing in the streets over there again, like on 9/11?
> >>> Where's 'over there' this time?
> >> even you should be able to figure that out Bill.
> > Well no.
> > The last time they were dancing in the streets 'over there', the place > > designated as 'over there' had little or no connection with US forces.
> > --
> the middle east Bill. they were jubilant in Tehran, Damascus, Riyard and > other places we don't have troops. > even the ones we haven't attacked dislike the west.
CNN was showing some loonie tunes in NYC last night in the wee hours that thought he was a martyr for Islam, get this, one was a Jew who converted, other was some Christian. Sometimes worst are converts. Supposedly not only are the people spewing the hate watched but supposedly local PD checks on those that seem more that a bit interested in watching them. still a free country, but actions have consequences. I'd rather they watch groups like that rather than the local geriatric knitting society that protests the war and gets so upset they burn the cookies and spill the tea during the discussions.
> > >> There is a certain story line coming out in news reports where > > >> people said he felt discriminated against. Full college and graduate > > >> study from the Army and a fast track to major doesn't sound like an > > >> official policy of discrimination.
> > > I'm not sure about the "fast track to major". I think that is probably > > > the normal progression for doctors. Like for nurses I believe it is > > > quick to captain, but hard to advance after that.
> > I believe you are correct on that.
> > - nilita
> There was a TV show about a Navy doctor. They had real trouble trying > to show how successful he was by "promoting" him every year. It became > obvious after three years that as a captain (Navy) he was almost too > senior to work in a hospital. I had a Captain dentist and he had > forgotten more about dentistry than any one.
Had a neurosurgeon, was only one in the region guy was always going TDY from Japan to Korea to Clark depending on the cases, needed somebody to crack a skull he was the guy to go to.
There was some orthopedic surgeon in Korea, don't remember what his specialty was, something really arcane with bone marrow or something, he had all sorts of specialty pay and bennies. Didn't make as much as private practice but for being in uniform they treated him with kid gloves to keep him working his magic with the chisels, tongs, mallets and whatnot.
Medical specialists easily make major, depending and usually surgery specialties come in higher, sometimes as full birds. Though their career track is totally different from the rest of the military.
> He says he's against the DP for civilian crimes,but makes an exception in > this case.
Normal, civil society. That's the touchstone. I don't want to see some poor sod topped merely because he murdered his wife or his best pal after an excess of, ah, something. I think such punishment brings pain, sorrow and other bad things upon Normal, Civil society. And, as I pointed out, you splendid American chaps are really bad at the business of dealing death to Bad Persons, however much they may have deserved it. Although such clumsiness really does not affect the moral issues involved. Let me put it this way, Jim: I don't want to pay a hangman's wages out of my taxes. I'd rather pay the hugely larger cost of locking people up. Personally, after I'd strangled my beloved wife I'd rather face the executioner than 20 years in jail. In the US, I could do both, which you may consider the best of all possible worlds. But personal feelings are poor guides to public policy.
> Besides,this is not even a civilian case.It happened on a military base,by > an active-duty military,on other military personnel.
Exactly. FWIW, here in the land of cheese-eating surrender monkeys, the general bar opinion (hah!) is much the same as mine. And as recently as the 1980s, the froggie French were in the habit of chopping heads off.
The real difficulty with the Fort Hood case is the stain it casts over other Muslims in the US military. Most such people are likely to be stalwart patriots etc etc, but I personally wouldn't trust any one of them farther than I could throw him, and certainly not at all if he was behind me, armed, in a dodgy situation.
So it would be quite salutary to deal with this lying, murderous buffoon in a manner not unknown to military organizations over the centuries. Crucifying him upside down over a slow fire would simply degrade the punishers. A properly formed firing squad is all that is required, and most of the humane decencies can be preserved.
-- "The past resembles the future as water resembles water" -- Ibn Khaldun
If you wish to email me, try putting a dot between alan and lothian. Blueyonder is a thing of the past.
Alexander wrote: > Andrew Swallow wrote: >> Alexander wrote: >>> Ray O'Hara wrote: >>>> "Andrew Swallow" <am.swal...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message >>>> news:MeGdnT81La1NBG7XnZ2dnUVZ8kVi4p2d@bt.com... >>>>> Ray O'Hara wrote: >>>>>> the Army just admitted he was alive and in stable condition.
>>>>> Oh dear. That means that the Army is going to have to put him on >>>>> trial. A BIG MESS.
>>>>> Andrew Swallow
>>>> and then execute him.
>>> Gitmo first!
>> Gitmo is for crimes committed outside the USA by non-US citizens. >> The interrogators will have to permit him to give up his right >> to silence in the jail house.
>> Andrew Swallow
> You are a killJoy.
That is probably true.
I suspect the USA needs to build an internal high security prison and interrogation centre. At least 3 days walk from the nearest town (about 100 miles). The shooter would make a good first prisoner.
> In article <Xns9CBCB131A102Ejyaniklocalnet...@216.168.3.44>, Jim Yanik ><jya...@abuse.gov> wrote:
>> I want to hear Alan's reasoning.
> A legitimate request, I must admit.
>> He says he's against the DP for civilian crimes,but makes an >> exception in this case.
> Normal, civil society. That's the touchstone. I don't want to see > some poor sod topped merely because he murdered his wife or his best > pal after an excess of, ah, something.
Nor do I.Those sort can be "rehabilitated" after serving their sentence and probation,and returned to society with little fear of recurrence. Now IMO,that does NOT extend to pedophile child killers,serial rapists,or those with long histories of ever-increasing violent crime.
> I think such punishment brings > pain, sorrow and other bad things upon Normal, Civil society. And, as > I pointed out, you splendid American chaps are really bad at the > business of dealing death to Bad Persons, however much they may have > deserved it. Although such clumsiness really does not affect the moral > issues involved. Let me put it this way, Jim: I don't want to pay a > hangman's wages out of my taxes. I'd rather pay the hugely larger cost > of locking people up. Personally, after I'd strangled my beloved wife > I'd rather face the executioner than 20 years in jail. In the US, I > could do both, which you may consider the best of all possible worlds. > But personal feelings are poor guides to public policy.
>> Besides,this is not even a civilian case.It happened on a military >> base,by an active-duty military,on other military personnel.
> Exactly. FWIW, here in the land of cheese-eating surrender monkeys, > the general bar opinion (hah!) is much the same as mine. And as > recently as the 1980s, the froggie French were in the habit of > chopping heads off.
> The real difficulty with the Fort Hood case is the stain it casts over > other Muslims in the US military. Most such people are likely to be > stalwart patriots etc etc, but I personally wouldn't trust any one of > them farther than I could throw him, and certainly not at all if he > was behind me, armed, in a dodgy situation.
well,there's a real problem in that if the Muslim is devoutly following the Koran(a "good" or "true" Muslim),then they definitely are a threat.Also,Muslims might tend to reveal plans,data,or supply tactical support to other Muslims.
> So it would be quite salutary to deal with this lying, murderous > buffoon in a manner not unknown to military organizations over the > centuries. Crucifying him upside down over a slow fire would simply > degrade the punishers. A properly formed firing squad is all that is > required, and most of the humane decencies can be preserved.
IMO,the DP should be applied to "career criminals",and particularly heinous murders,the sort where the felon cannot ever be released back into society.
<fjmcc...@gmail.com> wrote: > Alan Lothian <alanloth...@mac.com> wrote:
> :In article <tj0af51f3gsj4la6pgk18gq4mlca00h...@4ax.com>, Fred J. McCall > :<fjmcc...@gmail.com> wrote: > : > :> Andrew Swallow <am.swal...@btopenworld.com> wrote: > :> > :> : > :> :As of when was deliberately shooting soldiers not considered "levying > :> :War"? > :> : > :> > :> As of when it's not done at the behest of an enemy of the United > :> States. > : > :Ah, now there's a question. I will stand on my admittedly morally > :dubious position of "normal, civil society". Shoot the bugger. > :
> No problem here, but then I'm not particularly against killing > bastards wherever found.
I will stand pat on my "normal, civil society" argument against the death penalty. Even Jim Yanik has found at least some common ground with me on that. Indeed, my only solid counter-argument to Jim's point about topping serials and real crazies is the legal fuckups that would inevitably happen.
But your Fort Hood buffoon, sworn by oath, has committed almost the worst crime imaginable against his comrades. In fact, my imagination strains to come up with a worse, and I am a reasonably imaginative man. I suppose an outright treasonous betrayal to a foreign power, costing the lives of fellow-soldiers, might do it.
Shoot him as soon as he can stand up straight enough to be tied to a post. Umpteen years in some military death row is NOT the way. After a legally convened court-martial, of course, which should take no more than about thirty minutes. A few more minutes with the nearest-available Mad Mullah, and that's it.
My new French-Moroccan friend Layeed is much of my opinion, by the way, although he has informed me that my offer to the condemned of a quick glass of rough whiskey is seriously "haram", in the context of an imminent encounter with Allah. I make no pretence to be a Muslim theologian. Layeed thinks your man should be given a decent but by no means prolonged interval to say his prayers; I can go along with that.
Fred, don't imagine I am opposed to the death penalty because I am some kind of squeamy fuckwit liberal. (Liberal in the US sense: I maintain my position, in all other respects, as the most liberal and tolerant of men.)
And I did appreciate your offer of an alpha strike in a recent, ah, gentlemanly disagreement with a cowardly poltroon. I couldn't possibly have accepted it, of course, but it certainly heartened a chap.
-- "The past resembles the future as water resembles water" -- Ibn Khaldun
If you wish to email me, try putting a dot between alan and lothian. Blueyonder is a thing of the past.
Andrew Swallow wrote: > Alexander wrote: >> Andrew Swallow wrote: >>> Alexander wrote: >>>> Ray O'Hara wrote: >>>>> "Andrew Swallow" <am.swal...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message >>>>> news:MeGdnT81La1NBG7XnZ2dnUVZ8kVi4p2d@bt.com... >>>>>> Ray O'Hara wrote: >>>>>>> the Army just admitted he was alive and in stable condition.
>>>>>> Oh dear. That means that the Army is going to have to put him on >>>>>> trial. A BIG MESS.
>>>>>> Andrew Swallow
>>>>> and then execute him.
>>>> Gitmo first!
>>> Gitmo is for crimes committed outside the USA by non-US citizens. >>> The interrogators will have to permit him to give up his right >>> to silence in the jail house.
>>> Andrew Swallow
>> You are a killJoy.
> That is probably true.
> I suspect the USA needs to build an internal high security prison > and interrogation centre. At least 3 days walk from the nearest > town (about 100 miles). The shooter would make a good first > prisoner.
> Andrew Swallow
I'm kinda thinking along the same lines as you, Andrew. Execution, whilst entirely appropriate, instantly makes him a *martyr* to some. Perhaps a life sentence of hard labo[u]r in a remote secure military prison, without visitors, except for immediate family and only then occasionaly (you know, Christmas and such), is a suitable example for future reference and *food for thought* for would-be emulators.
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