Russia 'simulates' nuclear attack on Poland Russia has provoked outrage in Poland by simulating an air and sea attack on the country during military exercises.
By Matthew Day in Warsaw Published: 4:37PM GMT 01 Nov 2009
A Russian military tank in action in Georgia Photo: Getty Images The armed forces are said to have carried out "war games" in which nuclear missiles were fired and troops practised an amphibious landing on the country's coast.
Documents obtained by Wprost, one of Poland's leading news magazines, said the exercise was carried out in conjunction with soldiers from Belarus.
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The manoeuvres are thought to have been held in September and involved about 13,000 Russian and Belarusian troops.
Poland, which has strained relations with both countries, was cast as the "potential aggressor".
The documents state the exercises, code-named "West", were officially classified as "defensive" but many of the operations appeared to have an offensive nature.
The Russian air force practised using weapons from its nuclear arsenal, while in the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad, which neighbours Poland, Red Army forces stormed a "Polish" beach and attacked a gas pipeline.
The operation also involved the simulated suppression of an uprising by a national minority in Belarus – the country has a significant Polish population which has a strained relationship with authoritarian government of Belarus.
Karol Karski, an MP from Poland's Law and Justice, is to table parliamentary questions on Russia's war games and has protested to the European Commission.
His colleague, Marek Opiola MP, said: "It's an attempt to put us in our place. Don't forget all this happened on the 70th anniversary of the Soviet invasion of Poland."
Ordinary Poles were outraged by news of the exercise and demanded a firm response fro the government.
One man, identified only as Ted, told Polskie Radio: "Russia has laid bare its real intentions with respect to Poland. Every Pole most now get of the off the fence and be counted as a patriot or a traitor."
Donald Tusk, Poland's prime minister, has tried to build a pragmatic relationship with the Kremlin despite widespread and vocal calls in Poland for him to cool ties with Moscow.
After spending 40 years under Soviet domination few in Poland trust Russia, and many Poles have become increasingly wary of a country they consider as possessing a neo-imperialistic agenda.
Bogdan Klich, Poland’s defence minister, said: “It is a demonstration of strength. We are monitoring the exercises to see what has been planned.
Wladyslaw Stasiak, chief of President Lech Kaczynski’s office, and a former head of Poland’s National Security Council, added: “We didn’t like the appearance of the exercises and the name harked back to the days of the Warsaw Pact.”
The Russian troop exercises will come as an unwelcome sight to the states nestling on Russia’s western border who have deep-rooted anxieties over any Russian show of strength.
With a resurgent Moscow now more willing to flex its muscles, Central and Eastern Europeans have warned of Russia adopting a neo- imperialistic attitude to an area of the world it still regards as its sphere of influence.
In July, the region’s most famed and influential political figures, including Lech Walesa and Vaclav Havel, wrote an open letter Barack Obama warning him that Russia “is back as a revisionist power pursuing a 19th-century agenda with 21st-century tactics and methods.”
Moscow and Minsk have insisted that Operation West was to help "ensure the strategic stability in the East European region".
> Russia 'simulates' nuclear attack on Poland > Russia has provoked outrage in Poland by simulating an air and sea > attack on the country during military exercises.
> By Matthew Day in Warsaw > Published: 4:37PM GMT 01 Nov 2009
> A Russian military tank in action in Georgia Photo: Getty Images > The armed forces are said to have carried out "war games" in which > nuclear missiles were fired and troops practised an amphibious > landing > on the country's coast.
> Documents obtained by Wprost, one of Poland's leading news magazines, > said the exercise was carried out in conjunction with soldiers from > Belarus.
> Related Articles > South Korea tells North Korea to retract threat against civilian > flights > Japanese alarm at rise in Russian military activity > Dmitry Medvedev claims diplomatic victory for Russia > Russian general says Poland a nuclear 'target' > Russia to move rockets to EU border if Poland hosts US missile shield
> The manoeuvres are thought to have been held in September and > involved > about 13,000 Russian and Belarusian troops.
> Poland, which has strained relations with both countries, was cast as > the "potential aggressor".
> The documents state the exercises, code-named "West", were officially > classified as "defensive" but many of the operations appeared to have > an offensive nature.
> The Russian air force practised using weapons from its nuclear > arsenal, while in the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad, which > neighbours > Poland, Red Army forces stormed a "Polish" beach and attacked a gas > pipeline.
> The operation also involved the simulated suppression of an uprising > by a national minority in Belarus – the country has a significant > Polish population which has a strained relationship with > authoritarian > government of Belarus.
> Karol Karski, an MP from Poland's Law and Justice, is to table > parliamentary questions on Russia's war games and has protested to > the > European Commission.
> His colleague, Marek Opiola MP, said: "It's an attempt to put us in > our place. Don't forget all this happened on the 70th anniversary of > the Soviet invasion of Poland."
> Ordinary Poles were outraged by news of the exercise and demanded a > firm response fro the government.
> One man, identified only as Ted, told Polskie Radio: "Russia has laid > bare its real intentions with respect to Poland. Every Pole most now > get of the off the fence and be counted as a patriot or a traitor."
> Donald Tusk, Poland's prime minister, has tried to build a pragmatic > relationship with the Kremlin despite widespread and vocal calls in > Poland for him to cool ties with Moscow.
> After spending 40 years under Soviet domination few in Poland trust > Russia, and many Poles have become increasingly wary of a country > they > consider as possessing a neo-imperialistic agenda.
> Bogdan Klich, Poland’s defence minister, said: “It is a demonstration > of strength. We are monitoring the exercises to see what has been > planned.
> Wladyslaw Stasiak, chief of President Lech Kaczynski’s office, and a > former head of Poland’s National Security Council, added: “We didn’t > like the appearance of the exercises and the name harked back to the > days of the Warsaw Pact.”
> The Russian troop exercises will come as an unwelcome sight to the > states nestling on Russia’s western border who have deep-rooted > anxieties over any Russian show of strength.
> With a resurgent Moscow now more willing to flex its muscles, Central > and Eastern Europeans have warned of Russia adopting a neo- > imperialistic attitude to an area of the world it still regards as > its > sphere of influence.
> In July, the region’s most famed and influential political figures, > including Lech Walesa and Vaclav Havel, wrote an open letter Barack > Obama warning him that Russia “is back as a revisionist power > pursuing > a 19th-century agenda with 21st-century tactics and methods.”
> Moscow and Minsk have insisted that Operation West was to help > "ensure > the strategic stability in the East European region".
As opposed to the U.S., whose actions in the Middle East clearly show that it considers the entire world its "sphere of influence"
> Russia 'simulates' nuclear attack on Poland > Russia has provoked outrage in Poland by simulating an air and sea > attack on the country during military exercises.
[ SNIP ]
I wonder how the White Russians really felt about the Great Russians simulating nuclear attacks on Poland? What with fallout and all...
> > Russia 'simulates' nuclear attack on Poland > > Russia has provoked outrage in Poland by simulating an air and sea > > attack on the country during military exercises.
> [ SNIP ]
> I wonder how the White Russians really felt about the Great Russians > simulating nuclear attacks on Poland? What with fallout and all...
> AHS
I was somewhat astonished to learn that the building housing the central Russian government is called the White House. Looks like an insurance company regional headquarters
>> Russia 'simulates' nuclear attack on Poland >> Russia has provoked outrage in Poland by simulating an air and sea >> attack on the country during military exercises. > [ SNIP ]
> I wonder how the White Russians really felt about the Great Russians > simulating nuclear attacks on Poland? What with fallout and all...
> AHS
In their sort of "government",Russia -doesn't care- what their citizens think,or how they suffer.
On Nov 2, 9:05 am, "David E. Powell" <David_Powell3...@msn.com> wrote:
> In July, the region’s most famed and influential political figures, > including Lech Walesa and Vaclav Havel, wrote an open letter Barack > Obama warning him that Russia “is back as a revisionist power > pursuing > a 19th-century agenda with 21st-century tactics and methods.”
> Moscow and Minsk have insisted that Operation West was to help > "ensure > the strategic stability in the East European region".
What exactly are "19th-century agenda" and "21st century tactics" or "21st century agenda"? For people growing up in countries living through centuries of whirlpool of great power politics. These supposedly "famed" and "influential" political figures seemed to have a remarkably naive, no-higher-than-high-school understanding of the world we live in. I guess that's why countries like France and Germany, even Finland are considered the West? While they're not. It's a difference in maturity and pure grasp of reality.
On Nov 2, 7:53 pm, eatfastnoodle <d12s34...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 2, 9:05 am, "David E. Powell" <David_Powell3...@msn.com> wrote:
> > In July, the region’s most famed and influential political figures, > > including Lech Walesa and Vaclav Havel, wrote an open letter Barack > > Obama warning him that Russia “is back as a revisionist power > > pursuing > > a 19th-century agenda with 21st-century tactics and methods.”
> > Moscow and Minsk have insisted that Operation West was to help > > "ensure > > the strategic stability in the East European region".
> What exactly are "19th-century agenda"
When Poland was part of the Russian Empire: The 19th. Century.
and "21st century tactics" or
> "21st century agenda"?
Nuclear weapons and combined arms are 21st. Century tactics, at least as far as some doctrines. 21st century agenda would be an agenda of someone today, possibly also a reference to Russian relations with Georgia and Ukraine.
For people growing up in countries living
> through centuries of whirlpool of great power politics. These > supposedly "famed" and "influential" political figures seemed to have > a remarkably naive, no-higher-than-high-school understanding
Actually, the Polish tend to have quite a mind an dfamiliarity with history. One can see why looking at their history over the past 100 or so years, not to mention a few hundred or so years back past that brah.
of the
> world we live in. I guess that's why countries like France and > Germany, even Finland are considered the West? While they're not. It's > a difference in maturity and pure grasp of reality.
France considers themselves part of the West, and an independent player in the West as well. Germany is at the center of Europe but the Russians definitely consider it to be west of them. Finland is a bit different but sort of on the line as it were, but a Russian might or might not consider them "The West." Probably a Russian who lived cloer to them might think of them as closer, and a Russian from Moscow would think them more distant, at least in mentality.
> On Nov 2, 7:53 pm, eatfastnoodle <d12s34...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 2, 9:05 am, "David E. Powell" <David_Powell3...@msn.com> wrote:
> > > In July, the region’s most famed and influential political figures, > > > including Lech Walesa and Vaclav Havel, wrote an open letter Barack > > > Obama warning him that Russia “is back as a revisionist power > > > pursuing > > > a 19th-century agenda with 21st-century tactics and methods.”
> > > Moscow and Minsk have insisted that Operation West was to help > > > "ensure > > > the strategic stability in the East European region".
> > What exactly are "19th-century agenda"
> When Poland was part of the Russian Empire: The 19th. Century.
> and "21st century tactics" or
> > "21st century agenda"?
> Nuclear weapons and combined arms are 21st. Century tactics, at least > as far as some doctrines. 21st century agenda would be an agenda of > someone today, possibly also a reference to Russian relations with > Georgia and Ukraine.
> For people growing up in countries living
> > through centuries of whirlpool of great power politics. These > > supposedly "famed" and "influential" political figures seemed to have > > a remarkably naive, no-higher-than-high-school understanding
> Actually, the Polish tend to have quite a mind an dfamiliarity with > history. One can see why looking at their history over the past 100 or > so years, not to mention a few hundred or so years back past that > brah.
Having just spend time in Warsaw a couple of days ago and touring the Warsaw Uprising museum, that part of history is still VERY important to them, and its not something they can just forget about and put in the back of their minds, especially in light of who their eastern neighbor is. You had Hitler and Stalin conspire to just carve Poland up between them and even then that little agreement went sour, the Soviets were just content to let the fight mostly alone, since a weaker Poland would be easier to subdue later. And under Soviet occupation and rule, even the brave poles who took part in the uprising against the Germans, were later arrested, imprisoned, etc by the Soviets, and that part of history was not allowed to be taught, except only unless it was said that it was Communist soldiers who did the fighting with the assistance of the Soviets.
Allied aircraft dropping arms and food over Warsaw were shot at by both the Germans and the Soviets.
Putin wants to restart the cold war. except this time the Russias have less of everything and the Russian people aren't going to put up with long lines and peacetime rationing again he is making the mistake of thinking a strong military is a strong country. wars even cold ones are won with spare parts.
Ron wrote: > Allied aircraft dropping arms and food over Warsaw were shot at by > both the Germans and the Soviets.
Cite please.
-- William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
> What, it blows your mind that the Russians would do something like that?
An unidentified aircraft in an area where no friendlies were expected.
It was normal practice in those days.
Come to think of it, it's normal practice today.
-- William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
> Documents obtained by Wprost, one of Poland's leading news magazines, > said the exercise was carried out in conjunction with soldiers from > Belarus.
Of course I don't ask about this "obtained" but I suspect that Polish services are back to late 1930s prowess (whose, as everyone knows now, was one of the decisive factors, if not the most decisive, on the course & duration of WWII)
mike wrote: > On Nov 3, 4:20 am, William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> An unidentified aircraft in an area where no friendlies were expected.
>> It was normal practice in those days.
>> Come to think of it, it's normal practice today.
> Yeah, the Soviets and Nazis both had large formations of > four engine daylight bombers.
> Easy mistake to make.
> ...right.
There's an old joke told about Royal Navy aircraft recognition in WWII.
If it has single tail fin it is a Messerschmitt and you shoot it down.
If it has a twin fin it is a Heinkel, you shoot it down...
If it has a treble fin it is an unidentified enemy aircraft, and you shoot it down...
The Germans and Italians had no aircraft with a triple finned tails on operations...
-- William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
Richard Casady wrote: > On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 14:49:48 +0000, William Black > <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> If it has a treble fin it is an unidentified enemy aircraft, and you >> shoot it down...
>> The Germans and Italians had no aircraft with a triple finned tails on >> operations..
> I don't think a Constellation was shot down during that war. An EC-121 > was shot down in international airspace by the North Koreans, in 1969.
Plenty of Lancasters were...
-- William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
> On Nov 2, 7:53 pm, eatfastnoodle <d12s34...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 2, 9:05 am, "David E. Powell" <David_Powell3...@msn.com> wrote:
> > > In July, the region’s most famed and influential political figures, > > > including Lech Walesa and Vaclav Havel, wrote an open letter Barack > > > Obama warning him that Russia “is back as a revisionist power > > > pursuing > > > a 19th-century agenda with 21st-century tactics and methods.”
> > > Moscow and Minsk have insisted that Operation West was to help > > > "ensure > > > the strategic stability in the East European region".
> > What exactly are "19th-century agenda"
> When Poland was part of the Russian Empire: The 19th. Century.
> and "21st century tactics" or
> > "21st century agenda"?
> Nuclear weapons and combined arms are 21st. Century tactics, at least > as far as some doctrines. 21st century agenda would be an agenda of > someone today, possibly also a reference to Russian relations with > Georgia and Ukraine.
> For people growing up in countries living
> > through centuries of whirlpool of great power politics. These > > supposedly "famed" and "influential" political figures seemed to have > > a remarkably naive, no-higher-than-high-school understanding
> Actually, the Polish tend to have quite a mind an dfamiliarity with > history. One can see why looking at their history over the past 100 or > so years, not to mention a few hundred or so years back past that > brah.
> of the
> > world we live in. I guess that's why countries like France and > > Germany, even Finland are considered the West? While they're not. It's > > a difference in maturity and pure grasp of reality.
> France considers themselves part of the West, and an independent > player in the West as well. Germany is at the center of Europe but the > Russians definitely consider it to be west of them. Finland is a bit > different but sort of on the line as it were, but a Russian might or > might not consider them "The West." Probably a Russian who lived cloer > to them might think of them as closer, and a Russian from Moscow would > think them more distant, at least in mentality.
What I meant was the they seemed to have certain attitude that once they joined the great happy family of the west, there'd be no great power play and Russia should and would retrain from powerplaying to benefit its own interest. That's remarkably naive. They're small countries surrounded by great powers, the last they need to do is to side 100% with one side and poke at the eyes of another power for no reason other than to piss off the other side. There are ways to survive as small nations, though not always fail-proof, but Switzerland survived even though it borders France and Germany. Finland survives as a western-style country even though it borders Soviet Union, so did Sweden, Austria and other countries. What these countries didn't do, however, is to allow themselves to become chess pieces among great power power play. Merely decade after they left Soviet control, they couldn't help themselves but picking every opportunity to annoy France and Germany and provoking Russia. Not a smart thing to do. You can and should remember history and be aware of threat. But you can and should not set yourself up as pawns between what essentially battles between the US and Russia. France, Germany or even Britain didn't act like what they did. They only remember what Russia did to them, but seemed to forget their old great power allies whom they pinned hope on protecting left them when things actually got tough. America may or may not be in Europe 10 years from now, they'll have to live with Russia as next door neighbor for ever.
Ray O'Hara wrote: > "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message > news:hcpicp$8l1$2@news.eternal-september.org... >> Richard Casady wrote: >>> On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 14:49:48 +0000, William Black >>> <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> If it has a treble fin it is an unidentified enemy aircraft, and you >>>> shoot it down...
>>>> The Germans and Italians had no aircraft with a triple finned tails on >>>> operations.. >>> I don't think a Constellation was shot down during that war. An EC-121 >>> was shot down in international airspace by the North Koreans, in 1969.
>> Plenty of Lancasters were...
> HE-11s had a single tail fin and Lancasters and B-24s had twin tail fins, > I gather you didn't build many model airplanes as a kid.
Nope
Toy soldier boy...
-- William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
> > What, it blows your mind that the Russians would do something like that?
> An unidentified aircraft in an area where no friendlies were expected.
> It was normal practice in those days.
> Come to think of it, it's normal practice today.
> -- > William Black
> "Any number under six"
> The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of > Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat > single handed with a quarterstaff.
You want it cited? You can also go visit the Warsaw Uprising museum in Poland.
The Soviets knew full well the purpose of these flights. The USSR really did not want the uprising to be successful and mainly just sat there. The last thing the Soviets wanted was a resurgent Poland freeing itself, and often DID shoot at those allied planes attempting to drop arms, ammo, etc to the Polish Home Army. If that seems like something hard to believe, did the USSR also just mistakenly imprison/ deport/execute those Poles who took part, after WW2, and just mistakenly make it illegal for this episode in history to be accurately presented?
Quite a few buildings in Warsaw are still pockmarked with bullet holes from the uprising. You really have to talk to some Poles to understand their feelings towards that time in history, and to their neighbor to the east that they really have love lost for.
Ron wrote: > On Nov 3, 3:20 am, William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: >> Arved Sandstrom wrote: >>> William Black wrote: >>>> Ron wrote: >>>>> Allied aircraft dropping arms and food over Warsaw were shot at by >>>>> both the Germans and the Soviets. >>>> Cite please. >>> You can find one reference in >>> http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/warsaw/c1.html. >>> What, it blows your mind that the Russians would do something like that? >> An unidentified aircraft in an area where no friendlies were expected.
>> It was normal practice in those days.
>> Come to think of it, it's normal practice today. > You want it cited? You can also go visit the Warsaw Uprising museum > in Poland.
Is there any evidence that the USSR deliberately shot at those aircraft?
The archives are open and I would imagine there'd be a queue of people like yourself who'd be only too delighted to show that the USSR shot at Allied aircraft for political reasons.
-- William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
> Ron wrote: > > On Nov 3, 3:20 am, William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > >> Arved Sandstrom wrote: > >>> William Black wrote: > >>>> Ron wrote: > >>>>> Allied aircraft dropping arms and food over Warsaw were shot at by > >>>>> both the Germans and the Soviets. > >>>> Cite please. > >>> You can find one reference in > >>>http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/warsaw/c1.html. > >>> What, it blows your mind that the Russians would do something like that? > >> An unidentified aircraft in an area where no friendlies were expected.
> >> It was normal practice in those days.
> >> Come to think of it, it's normal practice today. > > You want it cited? You can also go visit the Warsaw Uprising museum > > in Poland.
> Is there any evidence that the USSR deliberately shot at those aircraft?
> The archives are open and I would imagine there'd be a queue of people > like yourself who'd be only too delighted to show that the USSR shot at > Allied aircraft for political reasons.
> --
Well, it happened multiple times, and is entirely consistent with the Soviet attitude towards Poland. Its not like anyone needs to make up things to think about regarding the USSR during WW2 for modern day political purposes. There is quite enough regarding Stalins intentions toward Poland in the late 1930s and afterwards to achieve any of that. Next you may be asking if the Soviets would have ever invaded Poland or maybe if those Polish officers were actually executed in Katyn.
Not all of the Russian archives are still open about all of this.
Ron wrote: > On Nov 4, 5:13 am, William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: >> Ron wrote: >>> On Nov 3, 3:20 am, William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: >>>> Arved Sandstrom wrote: >>>>> William Black wrote: >>>>>> Ron wrote: >>>>>>> Allied aircraft dropping arms and food over Warsaw were shot at by >>>>>>> both the Germans and the Soviets. >>>>>> Cite please. >>>>> You can find one reference in >>>>> http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/warsaw/c1.html. >>>>> What, it blows your mind that the Russians would do something like that? >>>> An unidentified aircraft in an area where no friendlies were expected. >>>> It was normal practice in those days. >>>> Come to think of it, it's normal practice today. >>> You want it cited? You can also go visit the Warsaw Uprising museum >>> in Poland. >> Is there any evidence that the USSR deliberately shot at those aircraft?
>> The archives are open and I would imagine there'd be a queue of people >> like yourself who'd be only too delighted to show that the USSR shot at >> Allied aircraft for political reasons.
>> -- > Well, it happened multiple times, and is entirely consistent with the > Soviet attitude towards Poland. Its not like anyone needs to make up > things to think about regarding the USSR during WW2 for modern day > political purposes. There is quite enough regarding Stalins > intentions toward Poland in the late 1930s and afterwards to achieve > any of that. Next you may be asking if the Soviets would have ever > invaded Poland or maybe if those Polish officers were actually > executed in Katyn.
> Not all of the Russian archives are still open about all of this.
So that's a 'no' then...
-- William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
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