Eugene Griessel <eug...@dynagen.co.za> writes: > On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:57:30 GMT, "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> > wrote:
>>Roger Conroy wrote: >>> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message >>> news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf@news.bytemine.net... >>>> In article <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989...@news.eternal-september.org>, >>>> mborger...@comcast.net says...
>>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 >>>>> @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com says...
> decades. These men are notorious for the stringent criteria they > apply to potential appies! I know of one lady potter (she already had > a fine arts degree and had being throwing pots for years) who went and > "worked" with one - to learn his skills. He used her like a slave, > basically, and did not pay her at all! All part of learnng the craft.
That's the truth. Sadly however, it is less and less possible for people to make the necessary sacrifices and remain able to support themselves. The Japanese social welfare system is extracting more money from individuals than ever before, and opportunity to study under a master craftsman or not, there are simply very few who can afford to go into such tutelage these days. NGO's do arise who try to subsidize such people, leading to other problems, as you can imagine. It takes very strong and determined individuals indeed: one follower of an old but able Aikido shihan drives a taxi just so that he can regulate his time to follow his teacher around wherever he goes.
tickle-me wrote: > Eugene Griessel <eug...@dynagen.co.za> writes: > > On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:57:30 GMT, "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> > > wrote:
> >>Roger Conroy wrote: > >>> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message > >>>news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf@news.bytemine.net... > >>>> In article <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989...@news.eternal-september.org>, > >>>> mborger...@comcast.net says...
> >>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 > >>>>> @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com says...
> > decades. These men are notorious for the stringent criteria they > > apply to potential appies! I know of one lady potter (she already had > > a fine arts degree and had being throwing pots for years) who went and > > "worked" with one - to learn his skills. He used her like a slave, > > basically, and did not pay her at all! All part of learnng the craft.
> That's the truth. Sadly however, it is less and less possible for people > to make the necessary sacrifices and remain able to support > themselves. The Japanese social welfare system is extracting more money > from individuals than ever before, and opportunity to study under a > master craftsman or not, there are simply very few who can afford to go > into such tutelage these days. NGO's do arise who try to subsidize such > people, leading to other problems, as you can imagine. It takes very > strong and determined individuals indeed: one follower of an old but > able Aikido shihan drives a taxi just so that he can regulate his time > to follow his teacher around wherever he goes.
"Craftsman" tools are no longer very good unfortunately although certainly better than the usual "Harbor Freight" chinese trash. Even today, the best tolerances are achieved by hand production. This is true both in optics fabrication and in tool and die making. As my machinist says, "When two dry parts have "stiction", (they actually stick together from Van der Waals forces) you cannot get them any better conforming, the tolerance is as good as it can get". You will not get such close fits from CNC. Even parts made on optical diamond turning systems have visible tool marks that prevent stiction whereas a good worker can achieve invisible tool marks and good stiction. The most useful quality this old guy has is his knowledge of materials like "Yes, Macor is completely Ultra-High Vacuum compatible but it's a bitch to get good tolerances with it" and similar. He will even machine Beryllium as long as he can do it in an oil bath. He is worth his weight in gold. One time I wanted to cut tiny comb-like structures in alumina. He devised a wire saw with .002" brass wire onto which a slurry of diamond was fed to imbed into the brass wire that slowly rubbed against the alumina cutting the notches. It would index every .005" to cut another notch. The wire was carried in grooves of a 3" diameter threaded spool and would reverse direction when it reached the end of the spool to keep the wear on the wire even, truly friggin amazing.
> : > :"tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message > :news:MPG.255c0175fa8a7a3a8be@news.bytemine.net... > :> In article <hcsqjt$qm...@news.eternal-september.org>, raymond- > :> oh...@hotmail.com says... > :>> > :>> "Frogwatch" <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > :>> > news:43d1c157-46f4-4d25-aadd-7ef7170f4920@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com... > :>> On Nov 4, 2:32 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com> wrote: > :>> > "Frogwatch" <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > :>> > > :>> > > news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272@v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com... > :>> > > :>> > > :>> > > :>> > > My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to > :>> > > know > :>> > > how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to > do > :>> > > with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by > :>> > > another career spent working at a university machine shop and also > :>> > > working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at > :>> > > making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us > :>> > > science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging > and > :>> > > resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will > suddenly > :>> > > happen to him without any notice. > :>> > > When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of > knowledge > :>> > > and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to > :>> > > replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of > :>> > > odd > :>> > > useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful > :>> > > skills? > :>> > > It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to > :>> > > somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form > :>> > > than > :>> > > writing but how? > :>> > > When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You > :>> > > know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do > it" > :>> > > and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. > :>> > > Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his > :>> > > mind > :>> > > from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he > recalls > :>> > > it. Is there some way we can preserve this? > :>> > > We need some way to download people's memories and then use > keywords > :>> > > and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as > having > :>> > > the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost. > :>> > > :>> > no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps > :>> > spinning. > :>> > :>> We do not need pyramids, we do need skilled toolmakers > :>> > :>> > :>> ====================================================================== > :>> > :>> stores are full of tools. > :> > :> Where do they come from ? > :> The tool fairy ? > : > :machines. these things called computers do the hard work. > :they aren't hand forged anymore. > :
> No, the guy who builds the original article (usually by hand) does the > hard work. That's followed by the hard work of telling the computer > how to build what you want.
> You've no experience at all with how this stuff works, do you?
its all done with machines. there is no need for a mock-up; CADCAM Fred.
> >> Roger Conroy wrote: > >>> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message > >>> news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf@news.bytemine.net... > >>>> In article <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989...@news.eternal-september.org>, > >>>> mborger...@comcast.net says...
> >>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 > >>>>> @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com says... > >>>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to > >>>>>> know how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have > >>>>>> anything to do with CNC) from an entire career spent working at > >>>>>> IBM followed by another career spent working at a university > >>>>>> machine shop and also working as a policeman. Not only do I rely > >>>>>> on him for his skill at making things but I rely on his judgement > >>>>>> concerning people (us science geeks are bad with such people > >>>>>> skills). I see him aging and resting his eyes more every year > >>>>>> and I know somethign will suddenly happen to him without any > >>>>>> notice. When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store > >>>>>> of knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are > >>>>>> doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do not > >>>>>> have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How on > >>>>>> earth can we save such useful skills?
> >>>>> The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship > >>>>> system. Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two with > >>>>> your machinist? That system worked out well in a small company I > >>>>> used to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who worked with > >>>>> our senior guy for several years before the older man retired. I > >>>>> was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog > >>>>> electronics. I was a decent programmer and digital designer, but > >>>>> had only basic analog electronics. He worked me through from > >>>>> simple to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there > >>>>> was a lot of yelling > >>>>> involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
> >>>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be > >>>>>> to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful > >>>>>> form than writing but how?
> >>>>> Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best > >>>>> way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching the > >>>>> next generation---if you give them the time and resources.
> >>>> Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make > >>>> things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
> >>> I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for > >>> aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the > >>> master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin could > >>> pick up a lesson or two from them.
> >> Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually > >> members of unions and often make much more money than those who work > >> in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a tool are > >> deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people who are down > >> and out.
> > Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and corrupt > > those who help people..
> As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people, is the > Conservatives and their ilk.
If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded.
> >> > > > > My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know > >> > > > > how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do > >> > > > > with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by > >> > > > > another career spent working at a university machine shop and also > >> > > > > working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at > >> > > > > making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us > >> > > > > science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and > >> > > > > resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly > >> > > > > happen to him without any notice. > >> > > > > When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge > >> > > > > and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to > >> > > > > replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd > >> > > > > useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful > >> > > > > skills? > >> > > > > It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to > >> > > > > somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than > >> > > > > writing but how? > >> > > > > When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You > >> > > > > know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" > >> > > > > and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. > >> > > > > Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind > >> > > > > from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls > >> > > > > it. Is there some way we can preserve this? > >> > > > > We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords > >> > > > > and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having > >> > > > > the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
> >> > > > no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps > >> > > > spinning.
> >> > > We do not need pyramids, we do need skilled toolmakers
> >> > Where do they come from ? > >> > The tool fairy ?
> >> China
> >I know this. > >Our friend may be unaware of it.
> I suggest you look up what a toolmaker does - it is a highly > specialised trade. These are the people who are largely responsible > for the machines, jigs, etc. that turn out the tools your store is > full of.
I am aware of what a tool and die maker does. The high school I attended back in the dark ages required a term of machine shop where one got to learn some of the basics ... We also spent time working with sheet metal for a term, automotive priciples for a term and basic electrical circuit for a term. All in our freshman year.
> >> > > > > My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to > >> > > > > know > >> > > > > how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to > >> > > > > do > >> > > > > with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by > >> > > > > another career spent working at a university machine shop and > >> > > > > also > >> > > > > working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill > >> > > > > at > >> > > > > making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us > >> > > > > science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging > >> > > > > and > >> > > > > resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will > >> > > > > suddenly > >> > > > > happen to him without any notice. > >> > > > > When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of > >> > > > > knowledge > >> > > > > and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to > >> > > > > replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store > >> > > > > of odd > >> > > > > useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such > >> > > > > useful > >> > > > > skills? > >> > > > > It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be > >> > > > > to > >> > > > > somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form > >> > > > > than > >> > > > > writing but how? > >> > > > > When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says > >> > > > > "You > >> > > > > know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do > >> > > > > it" > >> > > > > and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. > >> > > > > Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his > >> > > > > mind > >> > > > > from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he > >> > > > > recalls > >> > > > > it. Is there some way we can preserve this? > >> > > > > We need some way to download people's memories and then use > >> > > > > keywords > >> > > > > and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as > >> > > > > having > >> > > > > the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
> >> > > > no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps > >> > > > spinning.
> >> > > We do not need pyramids, we do need skilled toolmakers
> Frogwatch wrote: > > On Nov 5, 10:54 am, "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Eugene Griessel wrote: > >>> On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:57:30 GMT, "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> > >>> wrote: > >>>> Roger Conroy wrote: > >>>>> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message > >>>>> news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf@news.bytemine.net... > >>>>>> In article <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989...@news.eternal-september.org>, > >>>>>> mborger...@comcast.net says... > >>>>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 > >>>>>>> @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com says... > >>>>>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to > >>>>>>>> know how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have > >>>>>>>> anything to do with CNC) from an entire career spent working at > >>>>>>>> IBM followed by another career spent working at a university > >>>>>>>> machine shop and also working as a policeman. Not only do I rely > >>>>>>>> on him for his skill at making things but I rely on his judgement > >>>>>>>> concerning people (us science geeks are bad with such people > >>>>>>>> skills). I see him aging and resting his eyes more every year > >>>>>>>> and I know somethign will suddenly happen to him without any > >>>>>>>> notice. When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store > >>>>>>>> of knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are > >>>>>>>> doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do not > >>>>>>>> have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How on > >>>>>>>> earth can we save such useful skills? > >>>>>>> The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship > >>>>>>> system. Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two with > >>>>>>> your machinist? That system worked out well in a small company I > >>>>>>> used to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who worked with > >>>>>>> our senior guy for several years before the older man retired. I > >>>>>>> was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog > >>>>>>> electronics. I was a decent programmer and digital designer, but > >>>>>>> had only basic analog electronics. He worked me through from > >>>>>>> simple to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there > >>>>>>> was a lot of yelling > >>>>>>> involved at times----but I learned a lot that way. > >>>>>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be > >>>>>>>> to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful > >>>>>>>> form than writing but how? > >>>>>>> Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best > >>>>>>> way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching the > >>>>>>> next generation---if you give them the time and resources. > >>>>>> Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make > >>>>>> things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect.. > >>>>> I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for > >>>>> aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the > >>>>> master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin could > >>>>> pick up a lesson or two from them. > >>>> Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually > >>>> members of unions and often make much more money than those who work > >>>> in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a tool are > >>>> deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people who are down > >>>> and out. > >>> It is thus in most places - you might pay the plumber more than a > >>> doctor but you would not want to do his job and you sneer at those who > >>> do! > >> I don't begrudge their (tradesmen) wages at all. I was just stymied to hear > >> there are those who dont't believe think they make a decent wage. It just > >> bothers me to think that tool handlers are valued more in $ocioeconomic > >> term$ than those who work with people - whether it be teachers, social > >> workers, child care workers, etc.
> >> - nilita
> > My machinist is off today for an eye operation (glaucoma) and another > > employee told me he is not 75, he is 77, YIKES. > > Last year, we needed to make some slots in something .003" wide and > > the thinnest slitting saws you can normally buy are .006" thick. I > > finally found a company in Syracuse, NY selling slitting saws .003" > > thick and called them. I got an old German guy who refused to sell > > them to me because he said "You'll break them". He refused to sell > > them until he talked to our old machinist and was convinced he knew > > what he was doing. > > Ten years ago when we started selling our product, we were using a > > borrowed lathe and mill that were made in the early 40s. The > > machinist was getting extreme tolerances out of these old worn out > > machines simply because he knew how. When we licensed the technology > > to a big company, they sent a machinist down to see how we were making > > these things. When he saw these old machines and how it was being > > done his jaw dropped in shock. Now, then years later they still talk > > about that. > > I tell the machinist that when he decides he cannot work anymore, I'll > > pay him to sit in a lawn chair with a glass of iced tea and order > > people around.
> You'll lose your Republican ID card for that, you know...
For paying an old man to supervise ? You must be daft..
Frogwatch wrote: > My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know > how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do > with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by > another career spent working at a university machine shop and also > working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at > making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us > science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and > resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly > happen to him without any notice. > When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge > and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to > replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd > useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful > skills? > It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to > somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than > writing but how? > When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You > know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" > and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. > Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind > from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls > it. Is there some way we can preserve this? > We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords > and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having > the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
Someone's probably already said this, but there are attempts to put such people's knowhow into artificial intelligence software programs. The trouble with that is that such people's time is in high demand, and priority has to be assigned to doing this.
I haven't heard of people wisdom being treated that way. Seems like you could do a little of it.
A lot of things only come from experience. You're right, we don't assign enough value to that. Far Eastern and traditional cultures are better at that.
As individuals, we have to keep our skills up to date, so our employers don't find us obsolete.
> : > :"Fred J. McCall" <fjmcc...@gmail.com> wrote in message > :news:dd37f5hqr82gv45qdb967g9r8be24fv2kk@4ax.com... > :> "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com> wrote: > :> > :> ::> :"tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> :> :news:MPG.255c0175fa8a7a3a8be@news.bytemine.net... > :> :> > :> :> Where do they come from ? > :> :> The tool fairy ? > :> : > :> :machines. these things called computers do the hard work. > :> :they aren't hand forged anymore. > :> : > :> > :> No, the guy who builds the original article (usually by hand) does the > :> hard work. That's followed by the hard work of telling the computer > :> how to build what you want. > :> > :> You've no experience at all with how this stuff works, do you? > :> > : > : its all done with machines. there is no need for a mock-up; > :CADCAM Fred. > :
> I repeat. You've no experience at all with how this stuff works, do > you?
> -- > "Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the > truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." > -- Thomas Jefferson
Ray:
No "mock-ups"? Are you kidding? CNC enables better "mock-ups" before actually going thru the trouble of cutting real metal (or plastic or composite etc). There are materials specifically made to be used to be easily machined into mock-ups to ensure fit and form before the final CNC code is written. However, for one-of-a-kind projects, CNC is a waste of time unless the project requires complicated moves. Here is a good example; we are building a new x-ray detector. The body is simply a stainless block with a cylinder bored in it and a hole in the side and will be made by hand. It will have a closely fitting sleeve of Macor made by hand. The detector "window" has numerous O-80 threaded holes and a peculiar triangular knife edge. It could be made by hand but the numerous tiny threaded holes and knife edge make it better for CNC. A good machinist will easily be able to determine if CNC or hand making is better. A good designer will make it easy for the machinist to determine this. I've noticed that synergy between the designer and machinist is very important
<raymond-oh...@hotmail.com> wrote: > its all done with machines. there is no need for a mock-up; >CADCAM Fred.
I was at a shop a couple of years ago that used 3D prototyping machines. The nachines worked by projecting laser light into plastic resin. Where the two beams crossed the resin hardened. It was the closest thing to a Santa Claus machine I ever saw. You could build up a plastic model of anything you wanted. You would then make molds from the models and dies from the molds. The dies could make parts like transmission housings by the million.
The only shop of any size I've ever been in that was exclusively manual machining was a place that made gauges. A skilled machinist is more accurate than a CNC machine. At least that was the case then.
La N wrote: > "Jeffrey Hamilton" <bberesf...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message > news:IkDIm.7105$6c2.3694@newsfe03.iad... >> tankfixer wrote: >>> In article <ucyIm.50611$Db2.2797@edtnps83>, >>> nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com says...
>>>> Roger Conroy wrote: >>>>> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message >>>>> news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf@news.bytemine.net... >>>>>> In article >>>>>> <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989...@news.eternal-september.org>, >>>>>> mborger...@comcast.net says...
>>>>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 >>>>>>> @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com says... >>>>>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems >>>>>>>> to know how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have >>>>>>>> anything to do with CNC) from an entire career spent working at >>>>>>>> IBM followed by another career spent working at a university >>>>>>>> machine shop and also working as a policeman. Not only do I >>>>>>>> rely on him for his skill at making things but I rely on his >>>>>>>> judgement concerning people (us science geeks are bad with >>>>>>>> such people skills). I see him aging and resting his eyes >>>>>>>> more every year and I know somethign will suddenly happen to >>>>>>>> him without any notice. When he is gone, the world will have >>>>>>>> lost an huge store of knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the >>>>>>>> USA, we are doing little to replace such people and the >>>>>>>> new guys just do not have the store of odd useful things in >>>>>>>> their heads. How on earth can we save such useful skills?
>>>>>>> The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship >>>>>>> system. Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two >>>>>>> with your machinist? That system worked out well in a small >>>>>>> company I used to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who >>>>>>> worked with our senior guy for several years before the older >>>>>>> man retired. I was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the >>>>>>> area of analog electronics. I was a decent programmer and >>>>>>> digital designer, but had only basic analog electronics. He >>>>>>> worked me through from simple to more complex circuits. Given >>>>>>> his personality, there was a lot of yelling >>>>>>> involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
>>>>>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be >>>>>>>> to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful >>>>>>>> form than writing but how?
>>>>>>> Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best >>>>>>> way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching >>>>>>> the next generation---if you give them the time and resources.
>>>>>> Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make >>>>>> things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
>>>>> I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for >>>>> aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the >>>>> master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin could >>>>> pick up a lesson or two from them.
>>>> Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually >>>> members of unions and often make much more money than those who >>>> work in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a >>>> tool are deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people >>>> who are down and out.
>>> Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and >>> corrupt those who help people..
>> As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people, >> is the Conservatives and their ilk.
>> >> > > > > My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems >> >> > > > > to >> >> > > > > know >> >> > > > > how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything >> >> > > > > to >> >> > > > > do >> >> > > > > with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed >> >> > > > > by >> >> > > > > another career spent working at a university machine shop and >> >> > > > > also >> >> > > > > working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his >> >> > > > > skill >> >> > > > > at >> >> > > > > making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people >> >> > > > > (us >> >> > > > > science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him >> >> > > > > aging >> >> > > > > and >> >> > > > > resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will >> >> > > > > suddenly >> >> > > > > happen to him without any notice. >> >> > > > > When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of >> >> > > > > knowledge >> >> > > > > and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little >> >> > > > > to >> >> > > > > replace such people and the new guys just do not have the >> >> > > > > store >> >> > > > > of odd >> >> > > > > useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such >> >> > > > > useful >> >> > > > > skills? >> >> > > > > It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would >> >> > > > > be >> >> > > > > to >> >> > > > > somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful >> >> > > > > form >> >> > > > > than >> >> > > > > writing but how? >> >> > > > > When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says >> >> > > > > "You >> >> > > > > know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can >> >> > > > > do >> >> > > > > it" >> >> > > > > and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an >> >> > > > > answer. >> >> > > > > Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of >> >> > > > > his >> >> > > > > mind >> >> > > > > from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he >> >> > > > > recalls >> >> > > > > it. Is there some way we can preserve this? >> >> > > > > We need some way to download people's memories and then use >> >> > > > > keywords >> >> > > > > and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as >> >> > > > > having >> >> > > > > the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely >> >> > > > > lost.
>> >> > > > no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath >> >> > > > keeps >> >> > > > spinning.
>> >> > > We do not need pyramids, we do need skilled toolmakers
tankfixer wrote: > In article <IkDIm.7105$6c2.3...@newsfe03.iad>, bberesf...@cogeco.ca > says...
>> tankfixer wrote: >>> In article <ucyIm.50611$Db2.2797@edtnps83>, >>> nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com says...
>>>> Roger Conroy wrote: >>>>> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message >>>>> news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf@news.bytemine.net... >>>>>> In article >>>>>> <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989...@news.eternal-september.org>, >>>>>> mborger...@comcast.net says...
>>>>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 >>>>>>> @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com says... >>>>>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems >>>>>>>> to know how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have >>>>>>>> anything to do with CNC) from an entire career spent working at >>>>>>>> IBM followed by another career spent working at a university >>>>>>>> machine shop and also working as a policeman. Not only do I >>>>>>>> rely on him for his skill at making things but I rely on his >>>>>>>> judgement concerning people (us science geeks are bad with >>>>>>>> such people skills). I see him aging and resting his eyes >>>>>>>> more every year and I know somethign will suddenly happen to >>>>>>>> him without any notice. When he is gone, the world will have >>>>>>>> lost an huge store of knowledge and this seems a real shame. >>>>>>>> In the USA, we are doing little to replace such people and the >>>>>>>> new guys just do not have the store of odd useful things in >>>>>>>> their heads. How on earth can we save such useful skills?
>>>>>>> The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship >>>>>>> system. Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two >>>>>>> with your machinist? That system worked out well in a small >>>>>>> company I used to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who >>>>>>> worked with our senior guy for several years before the older >>>>>>> man retired. I was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the >>>>>>> area of analog electronics. I was a decent programmer and >>>>>>> digital designer, but had only basic analog electronics. He >>>>>>> worked me through from simple to more complex circuits. Given >>>>>>> his personality, there was a lot of yelling >>>>>>> involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
>>>>>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be >>>>>>>> to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful >>>>>>>> form than writing but how?
>>>>>>> Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best >>>>>>> way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching >>>>>>> the next generation---if you give them the time and resources.
>>>>>> Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make >>>>>> things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
>>>>> I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for >>>>> aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the >>>>> master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin could >>>>> pick up a lesson or two from them.
>>>> Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually >>>> members of unions and often make much more money than those who >>>> work in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a >>>> tool are deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people >>>> who are down and out.
>>> Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and >>> corrupt those who help people..
>> As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people, >> is the Conservatives and their ilk.
> If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded.
If *you* think working people will grt a break without unions, you are deluded.
> >>>> Roger Conroy wrote: > >>>>> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message > >>>>> news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf@news.bytemine.net... > >>>>>> In article > >>>>>> <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989...@news.eternal-september.org>, > >>>>>> mborger...@comcast.net says...
> >>>>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 > >>>>>>> @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com says... > >>>>>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems > >>>>>>>> to know how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have > >>>>>>>> anything to do with CNC) from an entire career spent working at > >>>>>>>> IBM followed by another career spent working at a university > >>>>>>>> machine shop and also working as a policeman. Not only do I > >>>>>>>> rely on him for his skill at making things but I rely on his > >>>>>>>> judgement concerning people (us science geeks are bad with > >>>>>>>> such people skills). I see him aging and resting his eyes > >>>>>>>> more every year and I know somethign will suddenly happen to > >>>>>>>> him without any notice. When he is gone, the world will have > >>>>>>>> lost an huge store of knowledge and this seems a real shame. > >>>>>>>> In the USA, we are doing little to replace such people and the > >>>>>>>> new guys just do not have the store of odd useful things in > >>>>>>>> their heads. How on earth can we save such useful skills?
> >>>>>>> The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship > >>>>>>> system. Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two > >>>>>>> with your machinist? That system worked out well in a small > >>>>>>> company I used to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who > >>>>>>> worked with our senior guy for several years before the older > >>>>>>> man retired. I was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the > >>>>>>> area of analog electronics. I was a decent programmer and > >>>>>>> digital designer, but had only basic analog electronics. He > >>>>>>> worked me through from simple to more complex circuits. Given > >>>>>>> his personality, there was a lot of yelling > >>>>>>> involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
> >>>>>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be > >>>>>>>> to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful > >>>>>>>> form than writing but how?
> >>>>>>> Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best > >>>>>>> way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching > >>>>>>> the next generation---if you give them the time and resources.
> >>>>>> Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make > >>>>>> things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
> >>>>> I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for > >>>>> aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the > >>>>> master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin could > >>>>> pick up a lesson or two from them.
> >>>> Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually > >>>> members of unions and often make much more money than those who > >>>> work in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a > >>>> tool are deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people > >>>> who are down and out.
> >>> Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and > >>> corrupt those who help people..
> >> As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people, > >> is the Conservatives and their ilk.
> > If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded.
> If *you* think working people will grt a break without unions, you are > deluded.
Unions used to serve a good purpose. Now they just serve tehmselves..
tankfixer wrote: > In article <9xsJm.2511$rE5.1...@newsfe08.iad>, bberesf...@cogeco.ca > says...
>> tankfixer wrote: >>> In article <IkDIm.7105$6c2.3...@newsfe03.iad>, bberesf...@cogeco.ca >>> says...
>>>> tankfixer wrote: >>>>> In article <ucyIm.50611$Db2.2797@edtnps83>, >>>>> nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com says...
>>>>>> Roger Conroy wrote: >>>>>>> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message >>>>>>> news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf@news.bytemine.net... >>>>>>>> In article >>>>>>>> <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989...@news.eternal-september.org>, >>>>>>>> mborger...@comcast.net says...
>>>>>>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 >>>>>>>>> @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com >>>>>>>>> says... >>>>>>>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who >>>>>>>>>> seems to know how to do anything on old manual machines >>>>>>>>>> (won't have anything to do with CNC) from an entire career >>>>>>>>>> spent working at IBM followed by another career spent >>>>>>>>>> working at a university machine shop and also working as a >>>>>>>>>> policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at >>>>>>>>>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people >>>>>>>>>> (us science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see >>>>>>>>>> him aging and resting his eyes more every year and I know >>>>>>>>>> somethign will suddenly happen to him without any notice. >>>>>>>>>> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of >>>>>>>>>> knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are >>>>>>>>>> doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do >>>>>>>>>> not have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How >>>>>>>>>> on earth can we save such useful skills?
>>>>>>>>> The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the >>>>>>>>> apprenticeship system. Can you assign a worker to spend the >>>>>>>>> next year or two with your machinist? That system worked out >>>>>>>>> well in a small company I used to work for. We had an >>>>>>>>> apprentice machinist who worked with our senior guy for >>>>>>>>> several years before the older man retired. I was sort of >>>>>>>>> an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog electronics. I >>>>>>>>> was a decent programmer and digital designer, but had only >>>>>>>>> basic analog electronics. He worked me through from simple >>>>>>>>> to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there was a >>>>>>>>> lot of yelling >>>>>>>>> involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would >>>>>>>>>> be to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more >>>>>>>>>> useful form than writing but how?
>>>>>>>>> Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the >>>>>>>>> best way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind >>>>>>>>> teaching the next generation---if you give them the time and >>>>>>>>> resources.
>>>>>>>> Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make >>>>>>>> things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
>>>>>>> I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for >>>>>>> aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the >>>>>>> master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin >>>>>>> could pick up a lesson or two from them.
>>>>>> Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually >>>>>> members of unions and often make much more money than those who >>>>>> work in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a >>>>>> tool are deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people >>>>>> who are down and out.
>>>>> Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and >>>>> corrupt those who help people..
>>>> As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people, >>>> is the Conservatives and their ilk.
>>> If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded.
>> If *you* think working people will grt a break without unions, you >> are deluded.
> Unions used to serve a good purpose. > Now they just serve tehmselves..
You should always add "IMHO" when you make a statement like that. You most certainly do not speak on behalf of all workers.
> :tankfixer wrote: > :> In article <9xsJm.2511$rE5.1...@newsfe08.iad>, bberesf...@cogeco.ca > :> says... > :>> > :>> tankfixer wrote: > :>>> In article <IkDIm.7105$6c2.3...@newsfe03.iad>, bberesf...@cogeco.ca > :>>> says... > :>>>> > :>>>> tankfixer wrote: > :>>>>> In article <ucyIm.50611$Db2.2797@edtnps83>, > :>>>>> nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com says... > :>>>>>> > :>>>>>> Roger Conroy wrote: > :>>>>>>> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message > :>>>>>>> news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf@news.bytemine.net... > :>>>>>>>> In article > :>>>>>>>> <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989...@news.eternal-september.org>, > :>>>>>>>> mborger...@comcast.net says... > :>>>>>>>>> > :>>>>>>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 > :>>>>>>>>> @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com > :>>>>>>>>> says... > :>>>>>>>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who > :>>>>>>>>>> seems to know how to do anything on old manual machines > :>>>>>>>>>> (won't have anything to do with CNC) from an entire career > :>>>>>>>>>> spent working at IBM followed by another career spent > :>>>>>>>>>> working at a university machine shop and also working as a > :>>>>>>>>>> policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at > :>>>>>>>>>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people > :>>>>>>>>>> (us science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see > :>>>>>>>>>> him aging and resting his eyes more every year and I know > :>>>>>>>>>> somethign will suddenly happen to him without any notice. > :>>>>>>>>>> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of > :>>>>>>>>>> knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are > :>>>>>>>>>> doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do > :>>>>>>>>>> not have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How > :>>>>>>>>>> on earth can we save such useful skills? > :>>>>>>>>> > :>>>>>>>>> The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the > :>>>>>>>>> apprenticeship system. Can you assign a worker to spend the > :>>>>>>>>> next year or two with your machinist? That system worked out > :>>>>>>>>> well in a small company I used to work for. We had an > :>>>>>>>>> apprentice machinist who worked with our senior guy for > :>>>>>>>>> several years before the older man retired. I was sort of > :>>>>>>>>> an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog electronics. I > :>>>>>>>>> was a decent programmer and digital designer, but had only > :>>>>>>>>> basic analog electronics. He worked me through from simple > :>>>>>>>>> to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there was a > :>>>>>>>>> lot of yelling > :>>>>>>>>> involved at times----but I learned a lot that way. > :>>>>>>>>> > :>>>>>>>>> > :>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would > :>>>>>>>>>> be to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more > :>>>>>>>>>> useful form than writing but how? > :>>>>>>>>> > :>>>>>>>>> Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the > :>>>>>>>>> best way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind > :>>>>>>>>> teaching the next generation---if you give them the time and > :>>>>>>>>> resources. > :>>>>>>>> > :>>>>>>>> Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make > :>>>>>>>> things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect.. > :>>>>>>>> > :>>>>>>>> > :>>>>>>> > :>>>>>>> I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for > :>>>>>>> aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the > :>>>>>>> master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin > :>>>>>>> could pick up a lesson or two from them. > :>>>>>> > :>>>>>> Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually > :>>>>>> members of unions and often make much more money than those who > :>>>>>> work in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a > :>>>>>> tool are deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people > :>>>>>> who are down and out. > :>>>>> > :>>>>> Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and > :>>>>> corrupt those who help people.. > :>>>> > :>>>> As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people, > :>>>> is the Conservatives and their ilk. > :>>> > :>>> If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded. > :>> > :>> If *you* think working people will grt a break without unions, you > :>> are deluded. > :> > :> Unions used to serve a good purpose. > :> Now they just serve tehmselves.. > : > :You should always add "IMHO" when you make a statement like that. You most > :certainly do not speak on behalf of all workers. > :
> You should always add "IMHO" when you make a statement like *that*. > You most certainly do not speak on behalf of all workers, either.
LOL! I don't think LaN claimed to speak on behalf of all workers. OTOH, if she, or any one other worker doesn't agree with TankFixer, she has valid factual grounds to say the he doesn't speak on behalf of all workers. IMHO, any assumption about ALL of any diverse group is bound to be false.
Mark Borgerson wrote: > In article <sl1df5pujvtatdfbbsofct8eo3clksj...@4ax.com>, > fjmcc...@gmail.com says... >> "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> tankfixer wrote: >>>> In article <9xsJm.2511$rE5.1...@newsfe08.iad>, bberesf...@cogeco.ca >>>> says...
>>>>> tankfixer wrote: >>>>>> In article <IkDIm.7105$6c2.3...@newsfe03.iad>, >>>>>> bberesf...@cogeco.ca says...
>>>>>>> tankfixer wrote: >>>>>>>> In article <ucyIm.50611$Db2.2797@edtnps83>, >>>>>>>> nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com says...
>>>>>>>>> Roger Conroy wrote: >>>>>>>>>> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>> news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf@news.bytemine.net... >>>>>>>>>>> In article >>>>>>>>>>> <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989...@news.eternal-september.org>, >>>>>>>>>>> mborger...@comcast.net says...
>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 >>>>>>>>>>>> @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com >>>>>>>>>>>> says... >>>>>>>>>>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who >>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to know how to do anything on old manual machines >>>>>>>>>>>>> (won't have anything to do with CNC) from an entire career >>>>>>>>>>>>> spent working at IBM followed by another career spent >>>>>>>>>>>>> working at a university machine shop and also working as a >>>>>>>>>>>>> policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at >>>>>>>>>>>>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning >>>>>>>>>>>>> people (us science geeks are bad with such people >>>>>>>>>>>>> skills). I see him aging and resting his eyes more every >>>>>>>>>>>>> year and I know somethign will suddenly happen to him >>>>>>>>>>>>> without any notice. When he is gone, the world will have >>>>>>>>>>>>> lost an huge store of knowledge and this seems a real >>>>>>>>>>>>> shame. In the USA, we are doing little to replace such >>>>>>>>>>>>> people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd >>>>>>>>>>>>> useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save >>>>>>>>>>>>> such useful skills?
>>>>>>>>>>>> The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the >>>>>>>>>>>> apprenticeship system. Can you assign a worker to spend the >>>>>>>>>>>> next year or two with your machinist? That system worked >>>>>>>>>>>> out well in a small company I used to work for. We had an >>>>>>>>>>>> apprentice machinist who worked with our senior guy for >>>>>>>>>>>> several years before the older man retired. I was sort of >>>>>>>>>>>> an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog >>>>>>>>>>>> electronics. I was a decent programmer and digital >>>>>>>>>>>> designer, but had only basic analog electronics. He >>>>>>>>>>>> worked me through from simple to more complex circuits. >>>>>>>>>>>> Given his personality, there was a lot of yelling >>>>>>>>>>>> involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make >>>>>>>>>>>>> would be to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability >>>>>>>>>>>>> in a more useful form than writing but how?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the >>>>>>>>>>>> best way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind >>>>>>>>>>>> teaching the next generation---if you give them the time >>>>>>>>>>>> and resources.
>>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately our society too often says that people who >>>>>>>>>>> make things with their hands are somehow less worthy of >>>>>>>>>>> respect..
>>>>>>>>>> I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies >>>>>>>>>> for aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and >>>>>>>>>> that the master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps >>>>>>>>>> we gaijin could pick up a lesson or two from them.
>>>>>>>>> Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are >>>>>>>>> usually members of unions and often make much more money than >>>>>>>>> those who work in human/social services. Therefore, those >>>>>>>>> who pick up a tool are deemed to be worth more $$$ than those >>>>>>>>> who help people who are down and out.
>>>>>>>> Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and >>>>>>>> corrupt those who help people..
>>>>>>> As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working >>>>>>> people, is the Conservatives and their ilk.
>>>>>> If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded.
>>>>> If *you* think working people will grt a break without unions, you >>>>> are deluded.
>>>> Unions used to serve a good purpose. >>>> Now they just serve tehmselves..
>>> You should always add "IMHO" when you make a statement like that. >>> You most certainly do not speak on behalf of all workers.
>> You should always add "IMHO" when you make a statement like *that*. >> You most certainly do not speak on behalf of all workers, either.
> LOL! I don't think LaN claimed to speak on behalf of all workers. > OTOH, if she, or any one other worker doesn't agree with TankFixer, > she has valid factual grounds to say the he doesn't speak on > behalf of all workers. IMHO, any assumption about ALL of any > diverse group is bound to be false.
> >>>>>> Roger Conroy wrote: > >>>>>>> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message > >>>>>>> news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf@news.bytemine.net... > >>>>>>>> In article > >>>>>>>> <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989...@news.eternal-september.org>, > >>>>>>>> mborger...@comcast.net says...
> >>>>>>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 > >>>>>>>>> @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com > >>>>>>>>> says... > >>>>>>>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who > >>>>>>>>>> seems to know how to do anything on old manual machines > >>>>>>>>>> (won't have anything to do with CNC) from an entire career > >>>>>>>>>> spent working at IBM followed by another career spent > >>>>>>>>>> working at a university machine shop and also working as a > >>>>>>>>>> policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at > >>>>>>>>>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people > >>>>>>>>>> (us science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see > >>>>>>>>>> him aging and resting his eyes more every year and I know > >>>>>>>>>> somethign will suddenly happen to him without any notice. > >>>>>>>>>> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of > >>>>>>>>>> knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are > >>>>>>>>>> doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do > >>>>>>>>>> not have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How > >>>>>>>>>> on earth can we save such useful skills?
> >>>>>>>>> The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the > >>>>>>>>> apprenticeship system. Can you assign a worker to spend the > >>>>>>>>> next year or two with your machinist? That system worked out > >>>>>>>>> well in a small company I used to work for. We had an > >>>>>>>>> apprentice machinist who worked with our senior guy for > >>>>>>>>> several years before the older man retired. I was sort of > >>>>>>>>> an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog electronics. I > >>>>>>>>> was a decent programmer and digital designer, but had only > >>>>>>>>> basic analog electronics. He worked me through from simple > >>>>>>>>> to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there was a > >>>>>>>>> lot of yelling > >>>>>>>>> involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
> >>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would > >>>>>>>>>> be to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more > >>>>>>>>>> useful form than writing but how?
> >>>>>>>>> Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the > >>>>>>>>> best way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind > >>>>>>>>> teaching the next generation---if you give them the time and > >>>>>>>>> resources.
> >>>>>>>> Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make > >>>>>>>> things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
> >>>>>>> I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for > >>>>>>> aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the > >>>>>>> master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin > >>>>>>> could pick up a lesson or two from them.
> >>>>>> Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually > >>>>>> members of unions and often make much more money than those who > >>>>>> work in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a > >>>>>> tool are deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people > >>>>>> who are down and out.
> >>>>> Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and > >>>>> corrupt those who help people..
> >>>> As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people, > >>>> is the Conservatives and their ilk.
> >>> If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded.
> >> If *you* think working people will grt a break without unions, you > >> are deluded.
> > Unions used to serve a good purpose. > > Now they just serve tehmselves..
> You should always add "IMHO" when you make a statement like that. You most > certainly do not speak on behalf of all workers.
Never claimed I was speaking for all the "workers".. Just as unions don't speak for all "workers"
tankfixer wrote: > In article <9xsJm.2511$rE5.1...@newsfe08.iad>, bberesf...@cogeco.ca > says...
>> tankfixer wrote: >>> In article <IkDIm.7105$6c2.3...@newsfe03.iad>, bberesf...@cogeco.ca >>> says...
>>>> tankfixer wrote: >>>>> In article <ucyIm.50611$Db2.2797@edtnps83>, >>>>> nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com says...
>>>>>> Roger Conroy wrote: >>>>>>> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message >>>>>>> news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf@news.bytemine.net... >>>>>>>> In article >>>>>>>> <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989...@news.eternal-september.org>, >>>>>>>> mborger...@comcast.net says...
>>>>>>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 >>>>>>>>> @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com >>>>>>>>> says... >>>>>>>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who >>>>>>>>>> seems to know how to do anything on old manual machines >>>>>>>>>> (won't have anything to do with CNC) from an entire career >>>>>>>>>> spent working at IBM followed by another career spent >>>>>>>>>> working at a university machine shop and also working as a >>>>>>>>>> policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at >>>>>>>>>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people >>>>>>>>>> (us science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see >>>>>>>>>> him aging and resting his eyes more every year and I know >>>>>>>>>> somethign will suddenly happen to him without any notice. >>>>>>>>>> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of >>>>>>>>>> knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are >>>>>>>>>> doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do >>>>>>>>>> not have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How >>>>>>>>>> on earth can we save such useful skills?
>>>>>>>>> The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the >>>>>>>>> apprenticeship system. Can you assign a worker to spend the >>>>>>>>> next year or two with your machinist? That system worked out >>>>>>>>> well in a small company I used to work for. We had an >>>>>>>>> apprentice machinist who worked with our senior guy for >>>>>>>>> several years before the older man retired. I was sort of >>>>>>>>> an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog electronics. I >>>>>>>>> was a decent programmer and digital designer, but had only >>>>>>>>> basic analog electronics. He worked me through from simple >>>>>>>>> to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there was a >>>>>>>>> lot of yelling >>>>>>>>> involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would >>>>>>>>>> be to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more >>>>>>>>>> useful form than writing but how?
>>>>>>>>> Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the >>>>>>>>> best way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind >>>>>>>>> teaching the next generation---if you give them the time and >>>>>>>>> resources.
>>>>>>>> Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make >>>>>>>> things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
>>>>>>> I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for >>>>>>> aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the >>>>>>> master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin >>>>>>> could pick up a lesson or two from them.
>>>>>> Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually >>>>>> members of unions and often make much more money than those who >>>>>> work in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a >>>>>> tool are deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people >>>>>> who are down and out.
>>>>> Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and >>>>> corrupt those who help people..
>>>> As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people, >>>> is the Conservatives and their ilk.
>>> If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded.
>> If *you* think working people will grt a break without unions, you >> are deluded.
> Unions used to serve a good purpose. > Now they just serve tehmselves..
Spoken like a true right-winger. Without a collective agreement, the workers _have_ no rights. Safety in numbers @tankfixer, *solidarity* really does work and for both parties too.
> >>>>>> Roger Conroy wrote: > >>>>>>> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message > >>>>>>> news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf@news.bytemine.net... > >>>>>>>> In article > >>>>>>>> <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989...@news.eternal-september.org>, > >>>>>>>> mborger...@comcast.net says...
> >>>>>>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 > >>>>>>>>> @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com > >>>>>>>>> says... > >>>>>>>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who > >>>>>>>>>> seems to know how to do anything on old manual machines > >>>>>>>>>> (won't have anything to do with CNC) from an entire career > >>>>>>>>>> spent working at IBM followed by another career spent > >>>>>>>>>> working at a university machine shop and also working as a > >>>>>>>>>> policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at > >>>>>>>>>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people > >>>>>>>>>> (us science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see > >>>>>>>>>> him aging and resting his eyes more every year and I know > >>>>>>>>>> somethign will suddenly happen to him without any notice. > >>>>>>>>>> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of > >>>>>>>>>> knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are > >>>>>>>>>> doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do > >>>>>>>>>> not have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How > >>>>>>>>>> on earth can we save such useful skills?
> >>>>>>>>> The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the > >>>>>>>>> apprenticeship system. Can you assign a worker to spend the > >>>>>>>>> next year or two with your machinist? That system worked out > >>>>>>>>> well in a small company I used to work for. We had an > >>>>>>>>> apprentice machinist who worked with our senior guy for > >>>>>>>>> several years before the older man retired. I was sort of > >>>>>>>>> an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog electronics. I > >>>>>>>>> was a decent programmer and digital designer, but had only > >>>>>>>>> basic analog electronics. He worked me through from simple > >>>>>>>>> to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there was a > >>>>>>>>> lot of yelling > >>>>>>>>> involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
> >>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would > >>>>>>>>>> be to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more > >>>>>>>>>> useful form than writing but how?
> >>>>>>>>> Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the > >>>>>>>>> best way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind > >>>>>>>>> teaching the next generation---if you give them the time and > >>>>>>>>> resources.
> >>>>>>>> Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make > >>>>>>>> things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
> >>>>>>> I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for > >>>>>>> aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the > >>>>>>> master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin > >>>>>>> could pick up a lesson or two from them.
> >>>>>> Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually > >>>>>> members of unions and often make much more money than those who > >>>>>> work in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a > >>>>>> tool are deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people > >>>>>> who are down and out.
> >>>>> Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and > >>>>> corrupt those who help people..
> >>>> As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people, > >>>> is the Conservatives and their ilk.
> >>> If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded.
> >> If *you* think working people will grt a break without unions, you > >> are deluded.
> > Unions used to serve a good purpose. > > Now they just serve tehmselves..
> Spoken like a true right-winger. Without a collective agreement, the workers > _have_ no rights. Safety in numbers @tankfixer, *solidarity* really does > work and for both parties too.
tankfixer wrote: > In article <oWKJm.2875$dc2.2...@newsfe20.iad>, bberesf...@cogeco.ca > says... >> tankfixer wrote: >>> In article <9xsJm.2511$rE5.1...@newsfe08.iad>, bberesf...@cogeco.ca >>> says... >>>> tankfixer wrote: >>>>> In article <IkDIm.7105$6c2.3...@newsfe03.iad>, bberesf...@cogeco.ca >>>>> says... >>>>>> tankfixer wrote: >>>>>>> In article <ucyIm.50611$Db2.2797@edtnps83>, >>>>>>> nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com says... >>>>>>>> Roger Conroy wrote: >>>>>>>>> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>>> news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf@news.bytemine.net... >>>>>>>>>> In article >>>>>>>>>> <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989...@news.eternal-september.org>, >>>>>>>>>> mborger...@comcast.net says... >>>>>>>>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 >>>>>>>>>>> @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com >>>>>>>>>>> says... >>>>>>>>>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who >>>>>>>>>>>> seems to know how to do anything on old manual machines >>>>>>>>>>>> (won't have anything to do with CNC) from an entire career >>>>>>>>>>>> spent working at IBM followed by another career spent >>>>>>>>>>>> working at a university machine shop and also working as a >>>>>>>>>>>> policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at >>>>>>>>>>>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people >>>>>>>>>>>> (us science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see >>>>>>>>>>>> him aging and resting his eyes more every year and I know >>>>>>>>>>>> somethign will suddenly happen to him without any notice. >>>>>>>>>>>> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of >>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are >>>>>>>>>>>> doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do >>>>>>>>>>>> not have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How >>>>>>>>>>>> on earth can we save such useful skills? >>>>>>>>>>> The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the >>>>>>>>>>> apprenticeship system. Can you assign a worker to spend the >>>>>>>>>>> next year or two with your machinist? That system worked out >>>>>>>>>>> well in a small company I used to work for. We had an >>>>>>>>>>> apprentice machinist who worked with our senior guy for >>>>>>>>>>> several years before the older man retired. I was sort of >>>>>>>>>>> an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog electronics. I >>>>>>>>>>> was a decent programmer and digital designer, but had only >>>>>>>>>>> basic analog electronics. He worked me through from simple >>>>>>>>>>> to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there was a >>>>>>>>>>> lot of yelling >>>>>>>>>>> involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would >>>>>>>>>>>> be to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more >>>>>>>>>>>> useful form than writing but how? >>>>>>>>>>> Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the >>>>>>>>>>> best way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind >>>>>>>>>>> teaching the next generation---if you give them the time and >>>>>>>>>>> resources. >>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make >>>>>>>>>> things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
>>>>>>>>> I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for >>>>>>>>> aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the >>>>>>>>> master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin >>>>>>>>> could pick up a lesson or two from them. >>>>>>>> Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually >>>>>>>> members of unions and often make much more money than those who >>>>>>>> work in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a >>>>>>>> tool are deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people >>>>>>>> who are down and out. >>>>>>> Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and >>>>>>> corrupt those who help people.. >>>>>> As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people, >>>>>> is the Conservatives and their ilk. >>>>> If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded. >>>> If *you* think working people will grt a break without unions, you >>>> are deluded. >>> Unions used to serve a good purpose. >>> Now they just serve tehmselves.. >> Spoken like a true right-winger. Without a collective agreement, the workers >> _have_ no rights. Safety in numbers @tankfixer, *solidarity* really does >> work and for both parties too.
> Yeh they sure are benifitting GM and Chrysler...
I would say that the American Unions have benefited China, Taiwan and just about every nation except America. Our Government unions have blackmailed a pay raise while social security recipients are now getting paid by Chinese subsidized checks. Since the 1st of October of this year. There will be no raises for the Elderly that have paid in to this system for 50 years of their live.
tankfixer wrote: > In article <oWKJm.2875$dc2.2...@newsfe20.iad>, bberesf...@cogeco.ca > says...
>> tankfixer wrote: >>> In article <9xsJm.2511$rE5.1...@newsfe08.iad>, bberesf...@cogeco.ca >>> says...
>>>> tankfixer wrote: >>>>> In article <IkDIm.7105$6c2.3...@newsfe03.iad>, >>>>> bberesf...@cogeco.ca says...
>>>>>> tankfixer wrote: >>>>>>> In article <ucyIm.50611$Db2.2797@edtnps83>, >>>>>>> nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com says...
>>>>>>>> Roger Conroy wrote: >>>>>>>>> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>>> news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf@news.bytemine.net... >>>>>>>>>> In article >>>>>>>>>> <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989...@news.eternal-september.org>, >>>>>>>>>> mborger...@comcast.net says...
>>>>>>>>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 >>>>>>>>>>> @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com >>>>>>>>>>> says... >>>>>>>>>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who >>>>>>>>>>>> seems to know how to do anything on old manual machines >>>>>>>>>>>> (won't have anything to do with CNC) from an entire career >>>>>>>>>>>> spent working at IBM followed by another career spent >>>>>>>>>>>> working at a university machine shop and also working as a >>>>>>>>>>>> policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at >>>>>>>>>>>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people >>>>>>>>>>>> (us science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see >>>>>>>>>>>> him aging and resting his eyes more every year and I know >>>>>>>>>>>> somethign will suddenly happen to him without any notice. >>>>>>>>>>>> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of >>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are >>>>>>>>>>>> doing little to replace such people and the new guys just >>>>>>>>>>>> do not have the store of odd useful things in their heads. >>>>>>>>>>>> How on earth can we save such useful skills?
>>>>>>>>>>> The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the >>>>>>>>>>> apprenticeship system. Can you assign a worker to spend the >>>>>>>>>>> next year or two with your machinist? That system worked >>>>>>>>>>> out well in a small company I used to work for. We had an >>>>>>>>>>> apprentice machinist who worked with our senior guy for >>>>>>>>>>> several years before the older man retired. I was sort of >>>>>>>>>>> an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog electronics. >>>>>>>>>>> I was a decent programmer and digital designer, but had only >>>>>>>>>>> basic analog electronics. He worked me through from simple >>>>>>>>>>> to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there was >>>>>>>>>>> a lot of yelling >>>>>>>>>>> involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make >>>>>>>>>>>> would be to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in >>>>>>>>>>>> a more useful form than writing but how?
>>>>>>>>>>> Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the >>>>>>>>>>> best way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind >>>>>>>>>>> teaching the next generation---if you give them the time and >>>>>>>>>>> resources.
>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make >>>>>>>>>> things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
>>>>>>>>> I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies >>>>>>>>> for aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and >>>>>>>>> that the master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps >>>>>>>>> we gaijin could pick up a lesson or two from them.
>>>>>>>> Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are >>>>>>>> usually members of unions and often make much more money than >>>>>>>> those who work in human/social services. Therefore, those who >>>>>>>> pick up a tool are deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who >>>>>>>> help people who are down and out.
>>>>>>> Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and >>>>>>> corrupt those who help people..
>>>>>> As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working >>>>>> people, is the Conservatives and their ilk.
>>>>> If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded.
>>>> If *you* think working people will grt a break without unions, you >>>> are deluded.
>>> Unions used to serve a good purpose. >>> Now they just serve tehmselves..
>> Spoken like a true right-winger. Without a collective agreement, the >> workers _have_ no rights. Safety in numbers @tankfixer, *solidarity* >> really does work and for both parties too.
> Yeh they sure are benifitting GM and Chrysler...
It is not the workers fault that the *Big 3* have no pensions available ! They were negotiated in lieu of wage increases (50 - 60 years ago), management failed to set-up a system that would invest that money and make it grow to meet it's future commitments. The resultant is an unfunded liability. This is why the UAW/CAW are now part owners.
It's not the workers fault that *management* failed to deliver products wanted by the buying public. They (Big 3)steadily lost market share for decades, but always paid themselves very, very well. They didn't have to build a *better Honda*, they just needed to build a Honda. A vehicle that was well engineered (the Big 3 were the masters of Catch 22 engineering policies), thrifty on gas and affordable.They had over three decades to see the demand and ignored it.
7% of the cost of a new car is workers wages.
Workers work, company management is the job of the *high-priced help*.
> > >>>>>> Roger Conroy wrote: > > >>>>>>> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message > > >>>>>>> news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf@news.bytemine.net... > > >>>>>>>> In article > > >>>>>>>> <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989...@news.eternal-september.org>, > > >>>>>>>> mborger...@comcast.net says...
> > >>>>>>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 > > >>>>>>>>> @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com > > >>>>>>>>> says... > > >>>>>>>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who > > >>>>>>>>>> seems to know how to do anything on old manual machines > > >>>>>>>>>> (won't have anything to do with CNC) from an entire career > > >>>>>>>>>> spent working at IBM followed by another career spent > > >>>>>>>>>> working at a university machine shop and also working as a > > >>>>>>>>>> policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at > > >>>>>>>>>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people > > >>>>>>>>>> (us science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see > > >>>>>>>>>> him aging and resting his eyes more every year and I know > > >>>>>>>>>> somethign will suddenly happen to him without any notice. > > >>>>>>>>>> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of > > >>>>>>>>>> knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are > > >>>>>>>>>> doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do > > >>>>>>>>>> not have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How > > >>>>>>>>>> on earth can we save such useful skills?
> > >>>>>>>>> The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the > > >>>>>>>>> apprenticeship system. Can you assign a worker to spend the > > >>>>>>>>> next year or two with your machinist? That system worked out > > >>>>>>>>> well in a small company I used to work for. We had an > > >>>>>>>>> apprentice machinist who worked with our senior guy for > > >>>>>>>>> several years before the older man retired. I was sort of > > >>>>>>>>> an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog electronics. I > > >>>>>>>>> was a decent programmer and digital designer, but had only > > >>>>>>>>> basic analog electronics. He worked me through from simple > > >>>>>>>>> to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there was a > > >>>>>>>>> lot of yelling > > >>>>>>>>> involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
> > >>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would > > >>>>>>>>>> be to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more > > >>>>>>>>>> useful form than writing but how?
> > >>>>>>>>> Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the > > >>>>>>>>> best way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind > > >>>>>>>>> teaching the next generation---if you give them the time and > > >>>>>>>>> resources.
> > >>>>>>>> Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make > > >>>>>>>> things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
> > >>>>>>> I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for > > >>>>>>> aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the > > >>>>>>> master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin > > >>>>>>> could pick up a lesson or two from them.
> > >>>>>> Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually > > >>>>>> members of unions and often make much more money than those who > > >>>>>> work in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a > > >>>>>> tool are deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people > > >>>>>> who are down and out.
> > >>>>> Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and > > >>>>> corrupt those who help people..
> > >>>> As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people, > > >>>> is the Conservatives and their ilk.
> > >>> If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded.
> > >> If *you* think working people will grt a break without unions, you > > >> are deluded.
> > > Unions used to serve a good purpose. > > > Now they just serve tehmselves..
> > Spoken like a true right-winger. Without a collective agreement, the workers > > _have_ no rights. Safety in numbers @tankfixer, *solidarity* really does > > work and for both parties too.
> Yeh they sure are benifitting GM and Chrysler...
IIRC, Ford has the same unions. It seemed to work out all right there. I think the difference betwee Ford and the others lies not in the unions, but in the management.
> tankfixer wrote: > > In article <oWKJm.2875$dc2.2...@newsfe20.iad>, bberesf...@cogeco.ca > > says... > >> tankfixer wrote: > >>> In article <9xsJm.2511$rE5.1...@newsfe08.iad>, bberesf...@cogeco.ca > >>> says... > >>>> tankfixer wrote: > >>>>> In article <IkDIm.7105$6c2.3...@newsfe03.iad>, bberesf...@cogeco.ca > >>>>> says... > >>>>>> tankfixer wrote: > >>>>>>> In article <ucyIm.50611$Db2.2797@edtnps83>, > >>>>>>> nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com says... > >>>>>>>> Roger Conroy wrote: > >>>>>>>>> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message > >>>>>>>>> news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf@news.bytemine.net... > >>>>>>>>>> In article > >>>>>>>>>> <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989...@news.eternal-september.org>, > >>>>>>>>>> mborger...@comcast.net says... > >>>>>>>>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 > >>>>>>>>>>> @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com > >>>>>>>>>>> says... > >>>>>>>>>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who > >>>>>>>>>>>> seems to know how to do anything on old manual machines > >>>>>>>>>>>> (won't have anything to do with CNC) from an entire career > >>>>>>>>>>>> spent working at IBM followed by another career spent > >>>>>>>>>>>> working at a university machine shop and also working as a > >>>>>>>>>>>> policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at > >>>>>>>>>>>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people > >>>>>>>>>>>> (us science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see > >>>>>>>>>>>> him aging and resting his eyes more every year and I know > >>>>>>>>>>>> somethign will suddenly happen to him without any notice. > >>>>>>>>>>>> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of > >>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are > >>>>>>>>>>>> doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do > >>>>>>>>>>>> not have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How > >>>>>>>>>>>> on earth can we save such useful skills? > >>>>>>>>>>> The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the > >>>>>>>>>>> apprenticeship system. Can you assign a worker to spend the > >>>>>>>>>>> next year or two with your machinist? That system worked out > >>>>>>>>>>> well in a small company I used to work for. We had an > >>>>>>>>>>> apprentice machinist who worked with our senior guy for > >>>>>>>>>>> several years before the older man retired. I was sort of > >>>>>>>>>>> an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog electronics. I > >>>>>>>>>>> was a decent programmer and digital designer, but had only > >>>>>>>>>>> basic analog electronics. He worked me through from simple > >>>>>>>>>>> to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there was a > >>>>>>>>>>> lot of yelling > >>>>>>>>>>> involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would > >>>>>>>>>>>> be to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more > >>>>>>>>>>>> useful form than writing but how? > >>>>>>>>>>> Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the > >>>>>>>>>>> best way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind > >>>>>>>>>>> teaching the next generation---if you give them the time and > >>>>>>>>>>> resources. > >>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make > >>>>>>>>>> things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
> >>>>>>>>> I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for > >>>>>>>>> aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the > >>>>>>>>> master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin > >>>>>>>>> could pick up a lesson or two from them. > >>>>>>>> Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually > >>>>>>>> members of unions and often make much more money than those who > >>>>>>>> work in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a > >>>>>>>> tool are deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people > >>>>>>>> who are down and out. > >>>>>>> Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and > >>>>>>> corrupt those who help people.. > >>>>>> As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people, > >>>>>> is the Conservatives and their ilk. > >>>>> If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded. > >>>> If *you* think working people will grt a break without unions, you > >>>> are deluded. > >>> Unions used to serve a good purpose. > >>> Now they just serve tehmselves.. > >> Spoken like a true right-winger. Without a collective agreement, the workers > >> _have_ no rights. Safety in numbers @tankfixer, *solidarity* really does > >> work and for both parties too.
> > Yeh they sure are benifitting GM and Chrysler...
> I would say that the American Unions have benefited China, Taiwan and > just about every nation except America. Our Government unions have > blackmailed a pay raise while social security recipients are now getting > paid by Chinese subsidized checks. Since the 1st of October of this > year. There will be no raises for the Elderly that have paid in to this > system for 50 years of their live.
Who else besides CEOs expects a raise this year? The unionized state employees here in Oregon are taking mandatory unpaid furlough days to cut costs.
>> > >>>>>> Roger Conroy wrote: >> > >>>>>>> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message >> > >>>>>>> news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf@news.bytemine.net... >> > >>>>>>>> In article >> > >>>>>>>> <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989...@news.eternal-september.org>, >> > >>>>>>>> mborger...@comcast.net says...
>> > >>>>>>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 >> > >>>>>>>>> @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com >> > >>>>>>>>> says... >> > >>>>>>>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who >> > >>>>>>>>>> seems to know how to do anything on old manual machines >> > >>>>>>>>>> (won't have anything to do with CNC) from an entire career >> > >>>>>>>>>> spent working at IBM followed by another career spent >> > >>>>>>>>>> working at a university machine shop and also working as a >> > >>>>>>>>>> policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at >> > >>>>>>>>>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people >> > >>>>>>>>>> (us science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see >> > >>>>>>>>>> him aging and resting his eyes more every year and I know >> > >>>>>>>>>> somethign will suddenly happen to him without any notice. >> > >>>>>>>>>> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of >> > >>>>>>>>>> knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are >> > >>>>>>>>>> doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do >> > >>>>>>>>>> not have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How >> > >>>>>>>>>> on earth can we save such useful skills?
>> > >>>>>>>>> The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the >> > >>>>>>>>> apprenticeship system. Can you assign a worker to spend the >> > >>>>>>>>> next year or two with your machinist? That system worked out >> > >>>>>>>>> well in a small company I used to work for. We had an >> > >>>>>>>>> apprentice machinist who worked with our senior guy for >> > >>>>>>>>> several years before the older man retired. I was sort of >> > >>>>>>>>> an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog electronics. I >> > >>>>>>>>> was a decent programmer and digital designer, but had only >> > >>>>>>>>> basic analog electronics. He worked me through from simple >> > >>>>>>>>> to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there was a >> > >>>>>>>>> lot of yelling >> > >>>>>>>>> involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
>> > >>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would >> > >>>>>>>>>> be to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more >> > >>>>>>>>>> useful form than writing but how?
>> > >>>>>>>>> Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the >> > >>>>>>>>> best way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind >> > >>>>>>>>> teaching the next generation---if you give them the time and >> > >>>>>>>>> resources.
>> > >>>>>>>> Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make >> > >>>>>>>> things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
>> > >>>>>>> I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies >> > >>>>>>> for >> > >>>>>>> aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that >> > >>>>>>> the >> > >>>>>>> master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin >> > >>>>>>> could pick up a lesson or two from them.
>> > >>>>>> Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are >> > >>>>>> usually >> > >>>>>> members of unions and often make much more money than those who >> > >>>>>> work in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a >> > >>>>>> tool are deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people >> > >>>>>> who are down and out.
>> > >>>>> Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and >> > >>>>> corrupt those who help people..
>> > >>>> As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people, >> > >>>> is the Conservatives and their ilk.
>> > >>> If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded.
>> > >> If *you* think working people will grt a break without unions, you >> > >> are deluded.
>> > > Unions used to serve a good purpose. >> > > Now they just serve tehmselves..
>> > Spoken like a true right-winger. Without a collective agreement, the >> > workers >> > _have_ no rights. Safety in numbers @tankfixer, *solidarity* really >> > does >> > work and for both parties too.
>> Yeh they sure are benifitting GM and Chrysler...
> IIRC, Ford has the same unions. It seemed to work out all right > there. I think the difference betwee Ford and the others lies not > in the unions, but in the management.
Yes. Management are taking huge salaries whilst not producing products that consumers want.
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