My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by another career spent working at a university machine shop and also working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly happen to him without any notice. When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful skills? It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than writing but how? When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls it. Is there some way we can preserve this? We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know > how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do > with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by > another career spent working at a university machine shop and also > working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at > making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us > science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and > resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly > happen to him without any notice. > When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge > and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to > replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd > useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful > skills? > It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to > somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than > writing but how? > When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You > know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" > and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. > Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind > from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls > it. Is there some way we can preserve this? > We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords > and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having > the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps spinning.
Frogwatch wrote: > My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know > how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do > with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by > another career spent working at a university machine shop and also > working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at > making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us > science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and > resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly > happen to him without any notice. > When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge > and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to > replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd > useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful > skills? > It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to > somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than > writing but how? > When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You > know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" > and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. > Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind > from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls > it. Is there some way we can preserve this? > We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords > and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having > the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
Hire an apprentice.
Normal apprenticeship for a 'toolmaker' or 'detail engineer' is three years in the UK with them doing one day at college and four days in your factory.
Pay is 50% the first year, 75% the second year and 90% the third year.
Take care, 'articles of employment' and so formal apprenticeships may be illegal in the USA...
Don't expect any useful work from him in the first year, he (or she) will spend that fetching and carrying and sweeping up and being generally insulted.
-- William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
> > My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know > > how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do > > with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by > > another career spent working at a university machine shop and also > > working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at > > making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us > > science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and > > resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly > > happen to him without any notice. > > When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge > > and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to > > replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd > > useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful > > skills? > > It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to > > somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than > > writing but how? > > When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You > > know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" > > and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. > > Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind > > from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls > > it. Is there some way we can preserve this? > > We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords > > and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having > > the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
> no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps spinning.
We do not need pyramids, we do need skilled toolmakers
Ray O'Hara wrote: > "Frogwatch" <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272@v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com... >> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know >> how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do >> with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by >> another career spent working at a university machine shop and also >> working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at >> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us >> science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and >> resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly >> happen to him without any notice. >> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge >> and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to >> replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd >> useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful >> skills? >> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to >> somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than >> writing but how? >> When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You >> know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" >> and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. >> Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind >> from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls >> it. Is there some way we can preserve this? >> We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords >> and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having >> the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
> no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps spinning.
Actually they do.
They just can't afford to build any these days.
There are no lost arts.
-- William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
> > My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know > > how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do > > with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by > > another career spent working at a university machine shop and also > > working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at > > making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us > > science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and > > resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly > > happen to him without any notice. > > When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge > > and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to > > replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd > > useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful > > skills? > > It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to > > somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than > > writing but how? > > When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You > > know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" > > and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. > > Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind > > from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls > > it. Is there some way we can preserve this? > > We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords > > and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having > > the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
> no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps > spinning.
We do not need pyramids, we do need skilled toolmakers
stores are full of tools. computers have replaced machinists. and the pyramid architects were very skilled craftsmen. new times and new methods. that's all.
> Ray O'Hara wrote: >> "Frogwatch" <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote in message >> news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272@v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com... >>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know >>> how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do >>> with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by >>> another career spent working at a university machine shop and also >>> working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at >>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us >>> science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and >>> resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly >>> happen to him without any notice. >>> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge >>> and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to >>> replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd >>> useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful >>> skills? >>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to >>> somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than >>> writing but how? >>> When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You >>> know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" >>> and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. >>> Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind >>> from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls >>> it. Is there some way we can preserve this? >>> We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords >>> and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having >>> the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
>> no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps >> spinning.
> Actually they do.
> They just can't afford to build any these days.
> There are no lost arts.
they can build a pyramid but not the way they built them. and hordes of Jewish slaves hauling blocks wasn't the method used.
> > > My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know > > > how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do > > > with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by > > > another career spent working at a university machine shop and also > > > working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at > > > making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us > > > science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and > > > resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly > > > happen to him without any notice. > > > When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge > > > and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to > > > replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd > > > useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful > > > skills? > > > It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to > > > somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than > > > writing but how? > > > When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You > > > know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" > > > and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. > > > Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind > > > from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls > > > it. Is there some way we can preserve this? > > > We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords > > > and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having > > > the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
> > no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps > > spinning.
> We do not need pyramids, we do need skilled toolmakers
> stores are full of tools. > computers have replaced machinists. > and the pyramid architects were very skilled craftsmen. > new times and new methods. that's all.
Ray O'Hara wrote: > "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message > news:hcspdg$eai$1@news.eternal-september.org... >> Ray O'Hara wrote: >>> "Frogwatch" <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote in message >>> news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272@v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com... >>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know >>>> how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do >>>> with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by >>>> another career spent working at a university machine shop and also >>>> working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at >>>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us >>>> science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and >>>> resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly >>>> happen to him without any notice. >>>> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge >>>> and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to >>>> replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd >>>> useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful >>>> skills? >>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to >>>> somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than >>>> writing but how? >>>> When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You >>>> know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" >>>> and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. >>>> Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind >>>> from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls >>>> it. Is there some way we can preserve this? >>>> We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords >>>> and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having >>>> the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
>>> no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps >>> spinning. >> Actually they do.
>> They just can't afford to build any these days.
>> There are no lost arts.
> they can build a pyramid but not the way they built them. > and hordes of Jewish slaves hauling blocks wasn't the method used.
Do you have some sort of serious source that says Jewish slaves built anything we actually know about?
-- William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
> Ray O'Hara wrote: > > "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message > >news:hcspdg$eai$1@news.eternal-september.org... > >> Ray O'Hara wrote: > >>> "Frogwatch" <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > >>>news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272@v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com... > >>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know > >>>> how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do > >>>> with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by > >>>> another career spent working at a university machine shop and also > >>>> working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at > >>>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us > >>>> science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and > >>>> resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly > >>>> happen to him without any notice. > >>>> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge > >>>> and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to > >>>> replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd > >>>> useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful > >>>> skills? > >>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to > >>>> somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than > >>>> writing but how? > >>>> When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You > >>>> know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" > >>>> and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. > >>>> Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind > >>>> from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls > >>>> it. Is there some way we can preserve this? > >>>> We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords > >>>> and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having > >>>> the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
> >>> no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps > >>> spinning. > >> Actually they do.
> >> They just can't afford to build any these days.
> >> There are no lost arts.
> > they can build a pyramid but not the way they built them. > > and hordes of Jewish slaves hauling blocks wasn't the method used.
> Do you have some sort of serious source that says Jewish slaves built > anything we actually know about?
> -- > William Black
> "Any number under six"
> The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of > Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat > single handed with a quarterstaff.
In many cases, it would take more time to program a CNC to do something than it would to make just one. In those cases, you need a skilled machinist. This is particularly true when you know you will be making changes to the item. A recent example was a part where the machinist made the first one and then they tried to program the CNC to make more. The first one took a day to make by hand on the manual machines. It took three weeks and many bad parts to finally get the CNC to do it right. Often, a part is being made purely for R&D and you know a commercial version will look different. In such a case, it often costs less to make it manually than to program the CNC. There are also many things even a 5 axis CNC cannot do. Many of our optics have sufficient variation that holders for them must be individually made and the fit is simply by repeated measurement. Even in 2009, there is still a need for skills that old machinists/ tool and die makers have.
> Ray O'Hara wrote: >> "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message >> news:hcspdg$eai$1@news.eternal-september.org... >>> Ray O'Hara wrote: >>>> "Frogwatch" <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote in message >>>> news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272@v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com... >>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know >>>>> how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do >>>>> with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by >>>>> another career spent working at a university machine shop and also >>>>> working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at >>>>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us >>>>> science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and >>>>> resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly >>>>> happen to him without any notice. >>>>> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge >>>>> and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to >>>>> replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd >>>>> useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful >>>>> skills? >>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to >>>>> somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than >>>>> writing but how? >>>>> When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You >>>>> know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" >>>>> and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. >>>>> Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind >>>>> from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls >>>>> it. Is there some way we can preserve this? >>>>> We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords >>>>> and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having >>>>> the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
>>>> no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps >>>> spinning. >>> Actually they do.
>>> They just can't afford to build any these days.
>>> There are no lost arts.
>> they can build a pyramid but not the way they built them. >> and hordes of Jewish slaves hauling blocks wasn't the method used.
> Do you have some sort of serious source that says Jewish slaves built > anything we actually know about?
why would I when I said they didn't do it what part of that is so difficult for you to understand.
as for claims they did read the bible, its a book some famous jewish guys wrote/plagiarized and many people believe.{maybe even you}
> > Ray O'Hara wrote: > >> "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message > >>news:hcspdg$eai$1@news.eternal-september.org... > >>> Ray O'Hara wrote: > >>>> "Frogwatch" <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > >>>>news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272@v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com... > >>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know > >>>>> how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do > >>>>> with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by > >>>>> another career spent working at a university machine shop and also > >>>>> working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at > >>>>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us > >>>>> science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and > >>>>> resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly > >>>>> happen to him without any notice. > >>>>> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge > >>>>> and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to > >>>>> replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd > >>>>> useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful > >>>>> skills? > >>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to > >>>>> somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than > >>>>> writing but how? > >>>>> When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You > >>>>> know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" > >>>>> and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. > >>>>> Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind > >>>>> from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls > >>>>> it. Is there some way we can preserve this? > >>>>> We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords > >>>>> and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having > >>>>> the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
> >>>> no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps > >>>> spinning. > >>> Actually they do.
> >>> They just can't afford to build any these days.
> >>> There are no lost arts.
> >> they can build a pyramid but not the way they built them. > >> and hordes of Jewish slaves hauling blocks wasn't the method used.
> > Do you have some sort of serious source that says Jewish slaves built > > anything we actually know about?
> why would I when I said they didn't do it > what part of that is so difficult for you to understand.
> as for claims they did read the bible, its a book some famous jewish guys > wrote/plagiarized and many people believe.{maybe even you}
Another view look up tool and die maker jobs on google
Ray O'Hara wrote: > if the old ways were better we'd still do it that way.
For certain values of "better". If you compare a hand-written and illuminated copy of the bible written on vellum with an early machine-printed version (or indeed a modern one), the first will clearly be better in everything but the amount of work required.
> > Ray O'Hara wrote: > >> "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message > >>news:hcspdg$eai$1@news.eternal-september.org... > >>> Ray O'Hara wrote: > >>>> "Frogwatch" <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > >>>>news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272@v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com... > >>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know > >>>>> how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do > >>>>> with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by > >>>>> another career spent working at a university machine shop and also > >>>>> working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at > >>>>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us > >>>>> science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and > >>>>> resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly > >>>>> happen to him without any notice. > >>>>> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge > >>>>> and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to > >>>>> replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd > >>>>> useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful > >>>>> skills? > >>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to > >>>>> somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than > >>>>> writing but how? > >>>>> When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You > >>>>> know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" > >>>>> and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. > >>>>> Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind > >>>>> from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls > >>>>> it. Is there some way we can preserve this? > >>>>> We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords > >>>>> and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having > >>>>> the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
> >>>> no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps > >>>> spinning. > >>> Actually they do.
> >>> They just can't afford to build any these days.
> >>> There are no lost arts.
> >> they can build a pyramid but not the way they built them. > >> and hordes of Jewish slaves hauling blocks wasn't the method used.
> > Do you have some sort of serious source that says Jewish slaves built > > anything we actually know about?
> why would I when I said they didn't do it > what part of that is so difficult for you to understand.
> as for claims they did read the bible, its a book some famous jewish guys > wrote/plagiarized and many people believe.{maybe even you}-
I'm pretty sure Jewish slaves building the pyramids isn't in the Bible.
> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know > how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do > with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by > another career spent working at a university machine shop and also > working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at > making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us > science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and > resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly > happen to him without any notice. > When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge > and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to > replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd > useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful > skills? > It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to > somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than > writing but how? > When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You > know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" > and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. > Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind > from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls > it. Is there some way we can preserve this? > We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords > and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having > the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
When the DOE plants here started down-sizing, they gave early retirements to many who had been around and knew a lot of the little things that weren't in the manuals. Others left to start private companies with DOE seed money.
There are some things that are only done every decade or so and when it's time to do them, there isn't anyone left who has done them before. For example, they emptied and cleaned a uranium processing kiln a few years ago. The manual neglected to mention it had to be totally dry before restarting.....resulting in a really nasty radioactive fire and some old guys saying "Hell, I coulda told you that".
The plants have also lost the welders who knew how to weld all sorts of esoteric metals together. After a few (expensive) mistakes, they figure out they have to contract the work to one of those private companies started with seed money. This seems to happen again and again. Maybe a few of the bigwigs should figure this out beforehand.
Ray O'Hara wrote: > "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message > news:hcsthj$knu$1@news.eternal-september.org... >> Ray O'Hara wrote: >>> "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message >>> news:hcspdg$eai$1@news.eternal-september.org... >>>> Ray O'Hara wrote: >>>>> "Frogwatch" <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote in message >>>>> news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272@v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com... >>>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know >>>>>> how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do >>>>>> with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by >>>>>> another career spent working at a university machine shop and also >>>>>> working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at >>>>>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us >>>>>> science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and >>>>>> resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly >>>>>> happen to him without any notice. >>>>>> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge >>>>>> and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to >>>>>> replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd >>>>>> useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful >>>>>> skills? >>>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to >>>>>> somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than >>>>>> writing but how? >>>>>> When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You >>>>>> know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" >>>>>> and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. >>>>>> Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind >>>>>> from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls >>>>>> it. Is there some way we can preserve this? >>>>>> We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords >>>>>> and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having >>>>>> the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost. >>>>> no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps >>>>> spinning. >>>> Actually they do.
>>>> They just can't afford to build any these days.
>>>> There are no lost arts.
>>> they can build a pyramid but not the way they built them. >>> and hordes of Jewish slaves hauling blocks wasn't the method used. >> Do you have some sort of serious source that says Jewish slaves built >> anything we actually know about?
> why would I when I said they didn't do it > what part of that is so difficult for you to understand.
> as for claims they did read the bible, its a book some famous jewish guys > wrote/plagiarized and many people believe.{maybe even you}
No references to pyramid building in the bible at all.
-- William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
deemsb...@aol.com wrote: > On Nov 4, 5:20 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> Ray O'Hara wrote: >>>> "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message >>>> news:hcspdg$eai$1@news.eternal-september.org... >>>>> Ray O'Hara wrote: >>>>>> "Frogwatch" <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote in message >>>>>> news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272@v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com... >>>>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know >>>>>>> how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do >>>>>>> with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by >>>>>>> another career spent working at a university machine shop and also >>>>>>> working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at >>>>>>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us >>>>>>> science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and >>>>>>> resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly >>>>>>> happen to him without any notice. >>>>>>> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge >>>>>>> and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to >>>>>>> replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd >>>>>>> useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful >>>>>>> skills? >>>>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to >>>>>>> somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than >>>>>>> writing but how? >>>>>>> When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You >>>>>>> know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" >>>>>>> and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. >>>>>>> Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind >>>>>>> from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls >>>>>>> it. Is there some way we can preserve this? >>>>>>> We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords >>>>>>> and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having >>>>>>> the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost. >>>>>> no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps >>>>>> spinning. >>>>> Actually they do. >>>>> They just can't afford to build any these days. >>>>> There are no lost arts. >>>> they can build a pyramid but not the way they built them. >>>> and hordes of Jewish slaves hauling blocks wasn't the method used. >>> Do you have some sort of serious source that says Jewish slaves built >>> anything we actually know about? >> why would I when I said they didn't do it >> what part of that is so difficult for you to understand.
>> as for claims they did read the bible, its a book some famous jewish guys >> wrote/plagiarized and many people believe.{maybe even you}-
> I'm pretty sure Jewish slaves building the pyramids isn't in the > Bible.
I'm bloody sure it isn't.
Except maybe in the ones with pictures...
-- William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com says...
> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know > how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do > with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by > another career spent working at a university machine shop and also > working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at > making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us > science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and > resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly > happen to him without any notice. > When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge > and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to > replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd > useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful > skills?
The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship system. Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two with your machinist? That system worked out well in a small company I used to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who worked with our senior guy for several years before the older man retired. I was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog electronics. I was a decent programmer and digital designer, but had only basic analog electronics. He worked me through from simple to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there was a lot of yelling involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to > somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than > writing but how?
Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching the next generation---if you give them the time and resources.
> When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You > know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" > and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. > Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind > from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls > it. Is there some way we can preserve this? > We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords > and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having > the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
Frogwatch wrote: > On Nov 4, 5:00 pm, William Black <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: >> Ray O'Hara wrote: >>> "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message >>> news:hcspdg$eai$1@news.eternal-september.org... >>>> Ray O'Hara wrote: >>>>> "Frogwatch" <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote in message >>>>> news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272@v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com... >>>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know >>>>>> how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do >>>>>> with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by >>>>>> another career spent working at a university machine shop and also >>>>>> working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at >>>>>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us >>>>>> science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and >>>>>> resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly >>>>>> happen to him without any notice. >>>>>> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge >>>>>> and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to >>>>>> replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd >>>>>> useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful >>>>>> skills? >>>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to >>>>>> somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than >>>>>> writing but how? >>>>>> When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You >>>>>> know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" >>>>>> and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. >>>>>> Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind >>>>>> from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls >>>>>> it. Is there some way we can preserve this? >>>>>> We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords >>>>>> and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having >>>>>> the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost. >>>>> no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps >>>>> spinning. >>>> Actually they do. >>>> They just can't afford to build any these days. >>>> There are no lost arts. >>> they can build a pyramid but not the way they built them. >>> and hordes of Jewish slaves hauling blocks wasn't the method used. >> Do you have some sort of serious source that says Jewish slaves built >> anything we actually know about?
> In many cases, it would take more time to program a CNC to do > something than it would to make just one. In those cases, you need a > skilled machinist. This is particularly true when you know you will > be making changes to the item. A recent example was a part where the > machinist made the first one and then they tried to program the CNC to > make more. The first one took a day to make by hand on the manual > machines. It took three weeks and many bad parts to finally get the > CNC to do it right.
Sack your CNC programmers and hire one who knows what he's doing...
> Often, a part is being made purely for R&D and you know a commercial > version will look different. In such a case, it often costs less to > make it manually than to program the CNC.
True.
There are also many things
> even a 5 axis CNC cannot do.
Also true
> Even in 2009, there is still a need for skills that old machinists/ > tool and die makers have.
True.
Hire one or train one.
Your choice.
Better still, train two.
-- William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
> > > My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know > > > how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do > > > with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by > > > another career spent working at a university machine shop and also > > > working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at > > > making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us > > > science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and > > > resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly > > > happen to him without any notice. > > > When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge > > > and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to > > > replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd > > > useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful > > > skills? > > > It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to > > > somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than > > > writing but how? > > > When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You > > > know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" > > > and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. > > > Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind > > > from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls > > > it. Is there some way we can preserve this? > > > We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords > > > and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having > > > the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
> > no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps > > spinning.
> We do not need pyramids, we do need skilled toolmakers
> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 > @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com says... > > My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know > > how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do > > with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by > > another career spent working at a university machine shop and also > > working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at > > making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us > > science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and > > resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly > > happen to him without any notice. > > When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge > > and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to > > replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd > > useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful > > skills?
> The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship system. > Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two with your > machinist? That system worked out well in a small company I used > to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who worked with our > senior guy for several years before the older man retired. I > was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog electronics. > I was a decent programmer and digital designer, but had only basic > analog electronics. He worked me through from simple to more > complex circuits. Given his personality, there was a lot of yelling > involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
> > It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to > > somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than > > writing but how?
> Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best way. > Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching the next > generation---if you give them the time and resources.
Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
> > > > My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know > > > > how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do > > > > with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by > > > > another career spent working at a university machine shop and also > > > > working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at > > > > making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us > > > > science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and > > > > resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly > > > > happen to him without any notice. > > > > When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge > > > > and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to > > > > replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd > > > > useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful > > > > skills? > > > > It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to > > > > somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than > > > > writing but how? > > > > When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You > > > > know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" > > > > and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. > > > > Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind > > > > from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls > > > > it. Is there some way we can preserve this? > > > > We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords > > > > and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having > > > > the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
> > > no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps > > > spinning.
> > We do not need pyramids, we do need skilled toolmakers
> "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message > news:hcsthj$knu$1@news.eternal-september.org... >> Ray O'Hara wrote: >>> "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message >>> news:hcspdg$eai$1@news.eternal-september.org... >>>> Ray O'Hara wrote: >>>>> "Frogwatch" <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote in message >>>>> news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272@v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com... >>>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to >>>>>> know >>>>>> how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do >>>>>> with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by >>>>>> another career spent working at a university machine shop and also >>>>>> working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at >>>>>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us >>>>>> science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and >>>>>> resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly >>>>>> happen to him without any notice. >>>>>> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge >>>>>> and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to >>>>>> replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of >>>>>> odd >>>>>> useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful >>>>>> skills? >>>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to >>>>>> somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form >>>>>> than >>>>>> writing but how? >>>>>> When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You >>>>>> know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it" >>>>>> and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer. >>>>>> Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his >>>>>> mind >>>>>> from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls >>>>>> it. Is there some way we can preserve this? >>>>>> We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords >>>>>> and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having >>>>>> the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
>>>>> no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps >>>>> spinning. >>>> Actually they do.
>>>> They just can't afford to build any these days.
>>>> There are no lost arts.
>>> they can build a pyramid but not the way they built them. >>> and hordes of Jewish slaves hauling blocks wasn't the method used.
>> Do you have some sort of serious source that says Jewish slaves built >> anything we actually know about?
> why would I when I said they didn't do it > what part of that is so difficult for you to understand.
> as for claims they did read the bible, its a book some famous jewish guys > wrote/plagiarized and many people believe.{maybe even you}
The Hebrew Bible does not mention pyramids at all.
It is well established that the pyramid builders were "tax conscripts" - Egyptian citizens paying their taxes in the form of labour instead of a fraction of their crops..
> In article <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989...@news.eternal-september.org>, > mborger...@comcast.net says...
>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 >> @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com says... >> > My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know >> > how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do >> > with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by >> > another career spent working at a university machine shop and also >> > working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at >> > making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us >> > science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and >> > resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly >> > happen to him without any notice. >> > When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge >> > and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to >> > replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd >> > useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful >> > skills?
>> The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship system. >> Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two with your >> machinist? That system worked out well in a small company I used >> to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who worked with our >> senior guy for several years before the older man retired. I >> was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog electronics. >> I was a decent programmer and digital designer, but had only basic >> analog electronics. He worked me through from simple to more >> complex circuits. Given his personality, there was a lot of yelling >> involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
>> > It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to >> > somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than >> > writing but how?
>> Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best way. >> Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching the next >> generation---if you give them the time and resources.
> Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make things > with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin could pick up a lesson or two from them.
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