On Oct 30, 6:11 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > or afair tax.
> Thats what a progressive income tax is.
> > Afair taxwould allow people to decide how much taxes they pay, by deciding how many things they buy.
> Even sillier with those on the lowest incomes that dont get to do that.
> > If they decide to do without, or keep making do with something older, they would pay fewer taxes.
> Even sillier with those on the lowest incomes that dont get to do that.
Have you read about the fair tax? The poor don't even pay it. Even better, they 1) Get to keep every cent they make and 2) Experience about a 22% discount over what they're paying now for goods and services manufactured, mined, or grown in this country.
It's WAY better than the supposed "progressive" income tax. It's actually a subsidy for the poor. Nobody ever pays the full fair tax rate (23% the 1st year, close to that subsequent years) buy Bill Gates might pay maybe 22.999999999%.
With the fair tax, we could bring prosperity back to the USA - the prosperity that the income tax has been choking out of the country for the last 50 years or so.
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote >>> or afair tax. >> Thats what a progressive income tax is. >>> Afair taxwould allow people to decide how much taxes >>> they pay, by deciding how many things they buy. >> Even sillier with those on the lowest incomes that dont get to do that. >>> If they decide to do without, or keep making do >>> with something older, they would pay fewer taxes. >> Even sillier with those on the lowest incomes that dont get to do that. > Have you read about the fair tax?
Yep.
> The poor don't even pay it.
Depends on what you call the poor.
> Even better, they 1) Get to keep every cent they make and > 2) Experience about a 22% discount over what they're paying now for > goods and services manufactured, mined, or grown in this country.
Not even possible to raise the amount currently raised in taxes that way.
And it only applys to federal income tax anyway, doesnt do a damned thing about the very substantial property taxes that most USians pay directly or indirectly in their rent etc.
> It's WAY better than the supposed "progressive" income tax.
Nope. And there is nothing supposed about the progressive income tax that all modern first and second world countrys have.
> It's actually a subsidy for the poor.
Why should those who choose to be poor by not bothering to work be subsidised ?
> Nobody ever pays the full fair tax rate (23% the 1st year, close to that > subsequent years) buy Bill Gates might pay maybe 22.999999999%.
Bill Gates is completely irrelevant to real world tax regimes.
> With the fair tax, we could bring prosperity back to the USA
Nope, far too many would choose to be poor and bludge off everyone else.
> - the prosperity that the income tax has been choking out of the country for the last 50 years or so.
Mindlessly silly. Prosperity hasnt been anything even remotely resembling choked off.
I am least frugal with my cats. I have taken in a feral cat, after months of trying to tame her, and she was pregnant at the time. I buy the best I can for her and her offspring as far as food and litter and toys.
They are my family.
JonquilJan
Learn something new every day As long as you are learning, you are living When you stop learning, you start dying
> > Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote > >>> or afair tax. > >> Thats what a progressive income tax is. > >>> Afair taxwould allow people to decide how much taxes > >>> they pay, by deciding how many things they buy. > >> Even sillier with those on the lowest incomes that dont get to do that. > >>> If they decide to do without, or keep making do > >>> with something older, they would pay fewer taxes. > >> Even sillier with those on the lowest incomes that dont get to do that. > > Have you read about thefair tax?
> Yep.
> > The poor don't even pay it.
> Depends on what you call the poor.
poor <= poverty level.
> > Even better, they 1) Get to keep every cent they make and > > 2) Experience about a 22% discount over what they're paying now for > > goods and services manufactured, mined, or grown in this country.
> Not even possible to raise the amount currently raised in taxes that way.
Well, that's rather off-handed. People with PHD's after their names say we can. What makes you think we can't?
> And it only applys to federal income tax anyway, doesnt do a damned thing about the > very substantial property taxes that most USians pay directly or indirectly in their rent etc.
Nope, but the poperty tax is not what's driving jobs overseas. The income tax is. Getting rid of the corporate income tax will be a large factor in keeping jobs here, and gettng the ones that left to return.
> > It's WAY better than the supposed "progressive" income tax.
> Nope. And there is nothing supposed about the progressive > income tax that all modern first and second world countrys have.
Is. And the income tax is not as progressive as the Fair Tax. That is, unless you want to use the tax system to really stick it to the rich. The Fair Tax is not good for punishing anyone.
> > It's actually a subsidy for the poor.
> Why should those who choose to be poor by not bothering to work be subsidised ?
They are working, most of 'em, they just don't make jack squat for wages in this idiot "service economy."
> > Nobody ever pays the fullfair taxrate (23% the 1st year, close to that > > subsequent years) buy Bill Gates might pay maybe 22.999999999%.
> Bill Gates is completely irrelevant to real world tax regimes.
Well, its the Democrats that always start whining about "The Rich" every time anyone talks about the Fair Tax, and I can't think of anyone richer, so used him. But anyway, the poverty level for a family of 4 is about $26,000, so a family of 4 making $52,000 only pays 1/2 the fair tax rate, effectively, as a maximum. If they buy anything used, they pay even less. A family of 4 at $78,000 pays only 2/3rds the Fair Tax rate. Etc. Its a _very_ progressive tax.
> > With thefair tax, we could bring prosperity back to the USA
> Nope, far too many would choose to be poor and bludge off everyone else.
And I say they wouldn't.
There's tons of ex-factory workers that would work like dogs if they could just get a job that they know how to do. Bring factories back, and there's people that will get some ladders and hand tools and plumb and wire it up faster than you can say Jack Robinson. Just don't expect 'em to "retrain" to do prostate specific antigen tests in a laboratory, 'cuz it ain't gonna happen. That's just not who they are.
If we don't get back jobs where people can work with their hands, instead of having to have this elite workforce that can do calculus and program computers and such, we're going to have a permanent underclass in this country. That's bad for them 'cuz poverty sucks and it's bad for us because we end up supporting them to at least a certain extent. It drags the whole country down.
> > - the prosperity that the income tax has been choking out of the country for the last 50 years or so.
> Mindlessly silly. Prosperity hasnt been anything even remotely resembling choked off.
Not by a long shot. Prosperity is flagging and getting worse. The last big thing that allowed Americans to earn a big income was the software development that went overseas about 10 years ago. Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books. Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it? There AREN'T any big-paying jobs even for the intellectually elite, unles they've got a masters or better. Back in the 60's, a man could be prosperous all by himself while working a factory job, supporting his family while his wife stayed home. Now it takes both husband and wife working, and sometimes one or more working two jobs, to be able to live that way. And that isn't even comparable, since the family in the 60's had more leisure time. Hard to take a family vacation from 2 or 3 jobs at once.
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote >> Rally2xs wrote >>> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote >>>>> or afair tax. >>>> Thats what a progressive income tax is. >>>>> Afair taxwould allow people to decide how much taxes >>>>> they pay, by deciding how many things they buy. >>>> Even sillier with those on the lowest incomes that dont get to do that. >>>>> If they decide to do without, or keep making do >>>>> with something older, they would pay fewer taxes. >>>> Even sillier with those on the lowest incomes that dont get to do that. >>> Have you read about thefair tax? >> Yep. >>> The poor don't even pay it. >> Depends on what you call the poor. > poor <= poverty level.
Thats just playing with words. There is no 'poverty level' that separates the real poor from everyone else. Plenty who are below the 'poverty level' arent actually poor at all.
>>> Even better, they 1) Get to keep every cent they make and >>> 2) Experience about a 22% discount over what they're paying now for >>> goods and services manufactured, mined, or grown in this country. >> Not even possible to raise the amount currently raised in taxes that way. > Well, that's rather off-handed.
Its a fact.
> People with PHD's after their names say we can.
I know plenty of fools with PhDs.
> What makes you think we can't?
The sales tax rate required to be revenue neutral is so high that it isnt viable.
>> And it only applys to federal income tax anyway, doesnt do >> a damned thing about the very substantial property taxes >> that most USians pay directly or indirectly in their rent etc. > Nope, but the poperty tax is not what's driving jobs overseas. The income tax is.
Pig ignorant lie.
What is driving SOME jobs overseas is the fact that americans are paid a hell of a lot more than what is paid to the lowest paid workers in places like china and no change to the US tax system will ever do a damned thing about that massive difference.
> Getting rid of the corporate income tax will be a large factor > in keeping jobs here, and gettng the ones that left to return.
Pig ignorant lie. The countrys that have no corporate income tax STILL buy their low cost consumer goods from china.
>>> It's WAY better than the supposed "progressive" income tax. >> Nope. And there is nothing supposed about the progressive >> income tax that all modern first and second world countrys have. > Is.
Isnt.
> And the income tax is not as progressive as the Fair Tax.
Another lie. The other very fundamental problme with the 'fair tax' which is in fact nothing even remotely resembling anything like fair, is that there is just ONE break in the tax scale, the value of the prebate.
> That is, unless you want to use the tax system to really stick it to the rich.
That doesnt work either, they just move their money out of the country and that fucks employment very comprehensively indeed.
> The Fair Tax is not good for punishing anyone.
It punishes the economy, stupid. Esssentially because it punished the prices everyone pays with a massive visible sales tax and that substantially slashes consumer spending. In spades with the more expensive stuff that consumers buy, houses and cars.
>>> It's actually a subsidy for the poor. >> Why should those who choose to be poor by not bothering to work be subsidised ? > They are working, most of 'em,
Another lie. A massive percentage of the population does not in fact work at all, even if you just count the adults.
> they just don't make jack squat for wages in this idiot "service economy."
Nothing idiot about it. We will never again see any modern first or second world country with a significant percentage of work in manufacturing, just like we wont see that in agriculture ever again either.
You clowns are furiously living in the past that LONG gone now, never to return.
Your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax wont get manufacturing jobs back from china, essentially because the chinese are paid vastly less than the US minimum wage.
In spades than what auto 'workers' etc are paid.
>>> Nobody ever pays the fullfair taxrate (23% the 1st year, close to that >>> subsequent years) buy Bill Gates might pay maybe 22.999999999%. >> Bill Gates is completely irrelevant to real world tax regimes. > Well, its the Democrats that always start whining about > "The Rich" every time anyone talks about the Fair Tax,
Who cares ? Those fools have never ever had a fucking clue either.
'the rich' are a tiny part of the total tax take, basically because there are so few of them.
> and I can't think of anyone richer, so used him.
More fool you. What matters is the total income tax take from 'the rich'
> But anyway, the poverty level for a family of 4 is about $26,000,
Mindlessly superficial, most obviously with those that own their own house and dont have a very big income, but who grow their own food etc. Those are anything even remotely resembling anything like 'in poverty'
> so a family of 4 making $52,000 only pays > 1/2 the fair tax rate, effectively, as a maximum.
Which is a hell of a lot more than those on that income currently pay in income tax.
> If they buy anything used, they pay even less. A family of 4 at $78,000 > pays only 2/3rds the Fair Tax rate. Etc. Its a _very_ progressive tax.
And completely fucked, because of its effect on what people pay for cars and houses etc.
Which just happen to be items that are mostly still made in america.
>>> With thefair tax, we could bring prosperity back to the USA >> Nope, far too many would choose to be poor and bludge off everyone else. > And I say they wouldn't.
More fool you. Hordes are ALREADY doing that RIGHT NOW.
Your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax would make that MUCH worse.
> There's tons of ex-factory workers that would work like > dogs if they could just get a job that they know how to do.
And your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax wouldnt give them a single job.
> Bring factories back,
Your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax wouldnt bring back even a single factory, essentially because the factorys in china and india pay VASTLY less than the american minimum wage, in spades than say auto 'workers' get paid.
> and there's people that will get some ladders and hand tools > and plumb and wire it up faster than you can say Jack Robinson.
They already do with the current tax system when there isnt a gross overhang of defaulted mortgages overhang the market.
> Just don't expect 'em to "retrain" to do prostate specific > antigen tests in a laboratory, 'cuz it ain't gonna happen.
Dont need to. The unemployment rate bottomed at 4.x% with an immense legal and illegal immigration rate just before the clowns completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN.
> That's just not who they are.
Plenty of other work they can do.
And your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax will completely cripple sales of cars and houses and massive numbers that will work in those areas will be out of a job ANYWAY.
> If we don't get back jobs where people can work with their > hands, instead of having to have this elite workforce that > can do calculus and program computers and such, we're > going to have a permanent underclass in this country.
That is always the case in every first and second world country.
Primarily those who choose not to work and who bludge on welfare.
And there must have been vast numbers of individuals that do stuff thats a hell of a lot easier than calculus and program computers and such to see the unemployment rate bottom at 4.x% with an immense legal and illegal immigration rate just before the clowns completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN.
> That's bad for them 'cuz poverty sucks
Yes, but plenty volunteer for welfare anyway and your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax will produce a hell of a lot more of them because it will completely cripple the sales of cars and houses etc.
It wont have any real effect that matters on the price of the lowest price consumer goods from china, essentially because those are so cheap.
> and it's bad for us because we end up supporting them to at least a certain extent.
You correctly point out that your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax 'supports' them even more than the current system does, essentially because there is a massive handout to those tho currently pay very little income tax because their income is low.
> It drags the whole country down.
And your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax will completely fuck the economy and see a hell of a lot more in genteel 'poverty' working from home flogging stuff on the net etc, essentially because those would then be paying no federal income tax at all.
A hell of a lot more of them would grow their own food, because your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax would not tax that food at all.
>>> - the prosperity that the income tax has been choking >>> out of the country for the last 50 years or so. >> Mindlessly silly. Prosperity hasnt been anything even remotely resembling choked off. > Not by a long shot. Prosperity is flagging and getting worse.
Pig ignorant lie. The unemployment rate bottom at 4.x% with an immense legal and illegal immigration rate just before the clowns completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN, and thats the main determinant of prosperity, having a job.
And the houses and cars people were buying just before the clowns completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN, proves in spades that real prosperity was nothing even remotely like flagging and getting worse.
> The last big thing that allowed Americans to earn a big income was > the software development that went overseas about 10 years ago.
Another bare faced pig ignorant lie. Huge numbers of professionals have very high incomes, most obviously with doctors, lawyers, bankers etc etc etc and fuck all of that ever left the country.
> Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books. > Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it?
On Oct 31, 10:47 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rally2xs wrote > What is driving SOME jobs overseas is the fact that americans > are paid a hell of a lot more than what is paid to the lowest paid > workers in places like china and no change to the US tax system > will ever do a damned thing about that massive difference.
It takes 30 - 33 hours of labor to construct 1 automobile. If the workers are getting $100 an hour, that's still only $3,000 - $3,300 of the price of the car. For a $25,000 Jeep Liberty, built in Toledo, Ohio, removing the corporate income tax embedded in its price would make the price of that Jeep to be $19,500. That's because there's 22% of the price that just goes for paying the income tax on the Jeep manufacturer and its suppliers and the share of the employees' social security and medicare taxes. IOW, you could pay Jeep's employees $0 an hour, and still not lower the price of the Jeep as much as getting rid of the corporate income tax would.
> > That is, unless you want to use the tax system to really stick it to the rich.
> That doesnt work either, they just move their money out of the > country and that fucks employment very comprehensively indeed.
Congratulations. You finally got something right. It's why there's $10 - $15 trillion that is currently hidden overseas, and would come rushing back into the country if the income tax went away.
> Your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax wont get manufacturing jobs back from china, > essentially because the chinese are paid vastly less than the US minimum wage.
Labor is no longer a big enough component of the price of things to control where they're manufactured. Its the taxes that are doing that now, specifically our income taxes, that drive corporations' manufacturing operations overseas.
> > so a family of 4 making $52,000 only pays > > 1/2 thefair taxrate, effectively, as a maximum.
> Which is a hell of a lot more than those on that income currently pay in income tax.
Untrue.
Under the fair tax, prices for items built, grown, or mined in the USA would rise only by about 1 percent. If the family of 4 makes $52,000 and spends every penny of it on new merchandise, that's only $520. By contrast, the income tax, in the form of the social security tax and the medicare tax, is a combined 7.65%, or $3,978. But getting back to the $520 that the family of 4 pays in additional expenses over today's prices, they're still getting the prebate of $5,980 / year, so yeah, they're waaaaay ahead of the income tax.
> > Just don't expect 'em to "retrain" to do prostate specific > > antigen tests in a laboratory, 'cuz it ain't gonna happen.
> Dont need to. The unemployment rate bottomed at 4.x% with an > immense legal and illegal immigration rate just before the clowns > completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN.
The unemployment rate doesn't tell the story. Some guy working for $7 / hr for some plumbing business in Podunk, Anystate is "employed" but he sure as hell isn't prosperous. He's just employed. Doesn't compare even a little bit with a guy making $30 an hour building cars.
> > That's just not who they are.
> Plenty of other work they can do.
And it all pays crap wages.
> A hell of a lot more of them would grow their own food, because > your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax would not tax that food at all.
Not anyone in NYC that only has asphalt and concrete for "soil." There's LOTS of city dwellers now, compared to the 30's during the depression, when the economy had a large agrarian component.
> Pig ignorant lie. The unemployment rate bottom at 4.x% with an > immense legal and illegal immigration rate just before the clowns > completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN, > and thats the main determinant of prosperity, having a job.
There you go with the unemployment rate again. Just because someone is employed doesn't mean they're prosperous. The really good jobs are mostly only things that you have to go to college for. Lotsa people can't get much benefit from going to college. They therefore are not prosperous, most of 'em. We need to change that. The Fair Tax would change that.
> > The last big thing that allowed Americans to earn a big income was > > the software development that went overseas about 10 years ago.
> Another bare faced pig ignorant lie. Huge numbers of professionals > have very high incomes, most obviously with doctors, lawyers, > bankers etc etc etc and fuck all of that ever left the country.
Yep, they can't be outsourced. They just have H1b visa holders come into this country and take their jobs. Why? Because H1b visa holders aren't required to pay the 7.65%, highly regressive social security and medicare taxes. IOW, it pays for employers here to hire foreigners rather than American citizens because of the income tax break.
> > Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books. > > Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it?
> Because we need fuck all in the way of new PC software > and real programmers dont need books from Borders > Bookstore or Barnes and Noble to write software.
Wrong. I am a programmer, and that is exactly where I buy my books, if they have them. I now need to go to Amazon to get most of them, 'cuz Borders doesn't have most of what I'm after. Only reason I'm an American citizen who is a programmer is because the stuff I work with has "Secret" stamped all over it, so they CAN'T send it to India. Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that lots of the rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to accept, at crap wages.
> > There AREN'T any big-paying jobs even for the > > intellectually elite, unles they've got a masters or better.
> Another bare faced pig ignorant lie, most obviously with doctors, > lawyers, bankers, CEOs, the best salesmen, etc etc etc.
Most of those have a Masters degree, or better.
> > Back in the 60's, a man could be prosperous all by himself while working > > a factory job, supporting his family while his wife stayed home.
> Still can with non factory jobs that pay the same amount.
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote >> Rally2xs wrote >> What is driving SOME jobs overseas is the fact that americans >> are paid a hell of a lot more than what is paid to the lowest paid >> workers in places like china and no change to the US tax system >> will ever do a damned thing about that massive difference. > It takes 30 - 33 hours of labor to construct 1 automobile.
That number is straight from your arse, we can tell from the smell.
Makes a massive difference how automated the car plant is.
> If the workers are getting $100 an hour,
The total cost of US labor is a hell of a lot more than that.
> that's still only $3,000 - $3,300 of the price of the car.
Thats still a massive difference in the price of particularly the cheapest cars.
> For a $25,000 Jeep Liberty, built in Toledo, Ohio, > removing the corporate income tax embedded in its > price would make the price of that Jeep to be $19,500.
That number is straight from your arse, we can tell from the smell.
When so many auto manufactureres arent even making a profit, there wont be any drop whatever with the elimination of corporate income tax.
> That's because there's 22% of the price that just goes for paying > the income tax on the Jeep manufacturer and its suppliers
That number is straight from your arse, we can tell from the smell.
> and the share of the employees' social security and medicare taxes.
You cant count those. Your Grossly Unfair Tax is JUST eliminating income tax not those other taxes as well.
> IOW, you could pay Jeep's employees $0 an hour, > and still not lower the price of the Jeep as much > as getting rid of the corporate income tax would.
Another lie.
And it still wouldnt get jobs back from Japan anyway, because they produce a hell of a lot better cars than US manufacturers do anyway.
>>> That is, unless you want to use the tax system to really stick it to the rich. >> That doesnt work either, they just move their money out of the >> country and that fucks employment very comprehensively indeed. > Congratulations. You finally got something right.
You've never ever managed anything like that. You cant even get the name of your tax right.
> It's why there's $10 - $15 trillion that is currently hidden overseas, and > would come rushing back into the country if the income tax went away.
Pigs arse it would. It would stay where it is because the US economy would be completely fucked by your Grossly Unfair Tax, because of the massive effect it would have on the sales of cars and houses etc etc etc, areas where there is already a massive problem economically.
>> Your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax wont get manufacturing >> jobs back from china, essentially because the chinese >> are paid vastly less than the US minimum wage. > Labor is no longer a big enough component of the > price of things to control where they're manufactured.
Is that right ? So the manufacturing of low cost consumer goods moved to China just so we could end up dead from the lack of quality control and fraud involved in the manufacturing there eh ?
Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have never ever had a fucking clue about anything at all, ever.
> Its the taxes that are doing that now, specifically our income > taxes, that drive corporations' manufacturing operations overseas.
That cant be the problem with the auto industry, fool.
They aint paying any income tax, because they aint makin a profit, fool.
>>> so a family of 4 making $52,000 only pays >>> 1/2 thefair taxrate, effectively, as a maximum. >> Which is a hell of a lot more than those on that income currently pay in income tax. > Untrue.
True.
> Under the fair tax, prices for items built, grown, or > mined in the USA would rise only by about 1 percent.
That number is straight from your arse, we can tell from the smell.
That cant happen with a your Grossly Unfair Tax which would need to be at atleast 50% to be revenue neutral given the massive damage it would do to the sales of cars and houses etc etc etc.
> If the family of 4 makes $52,000 and spends every > penny of it on new merchandise, that's only $520.
It would actually be $26K+, fool.
> By contrast, the income tax, in the form of > the social security tax and the medicare tax,
You cant count those, they aint replaced by your Grossly Unfair Tax.
> is a combined 7.65%, or $3,978.
Pity about the $26K+ which is the real figure.
> But getting back to the $520 that the family of 4 > pays in additional expenses over today's prices,
Pity its actually $26K+
> they're still getting the prebate of $5,980 / year, > so yeah, they're waaaaay ahead of the income tax.
Like hell they are when the real number is $26K+
>>> Just don't expect 'em to "retrain" to do prostate specific >>> antigen tests in a laboratory, 'cuz it ain't gonna happen. >> Dont need to. The unemployment rate bottomed at 4.x% with an >> immense legal and illegal immigration rate just before the clowns >> completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN. > The unemployment rate doesn't tell the story.
Corse it does on that retraining question.
> Some guy working for $7 / hr for some plumbing business in Podunk, > Anystate is "employed" but he sure as hell isn't prosperous.
Thats another pig ignorant lie.
> He's just employed. Doesn't compare even a little > bit with a guy making $30 an hour building cars.
Fuck all of the workforce ever builds cars, fool.
Fuck all ever did even before Japan got involved.
>>> That's just not who they are. >> Plenty of other work they can do. > And it all pays crap wages.
Another bare faced lie.
>> A hell of a lot more of them would grow their own food, because >> your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax would not tax that food at all. > Not anyone in NYC that only has asphalt and concrete for "soil."
Wrong, as always. Its completely trivial to grow food in pots, fool.
> There's LOTS of city dwellers now, compared to the 30's during > the depression, when the economy had a large agrarian component.
There's still plenty that can grow their own food if they want to.
>> Pig ignorant lie. The unemployment rate bottom at 4.x% with an >> immense legal and illegal immigration rate just before the clowns >> completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN, >> and thats the main determinant of prosperity, having a job. > There you go with the unemployment rate again. Just because > someone is employed doesn't mean they're prosperous.
They sure aint in poverty, fool.
> The really good jobs are mostly only things that you have to go to college for.
Another pig ignorant lie.
> Lotsa people can't get much benefit from going to college. > They therefore are not prosperous, most of 'em.
Another pig ignorant lie. Hordes who ever went anywhere near college are prosperous, fool.
> We need to change that.
Nope,
> The Fair Tax would change that.
Yes, your Grossly Unfair Tax would completely fuck the economy.
In spades with the car and housing industrys. Two areas where those who have never ever been anywhere near college can currently be quite prosperous until fools like you completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN.
>>> The last big thing that allowed Americans to earn a big income was >>> the software development that went overseas about 10 years ago. >> Another bare faced pig ignorant lie. Huge numbers of professionals >> have very high incomes, most obviously with doctors, lawyers, >> bankers etc etc etc and fuck all of that ever left the country. > Yep, they can't be outsourced. They just have H1b > visa holders come into this country and take their jobs.
Easily stopped without fucking the tax system, fool.
> Why? Because H1b visa holders aren't required to pay the > 7.65%, highly regressive social security and medicare taxes.
Fuck all doctors, lawyers, bankers are H1Bs, fool.
> IOW, it pays for employers here to hire foreigners rather > than American citizens because of the income tax break.
Fuck all doctors, lawyers, bankers are H1Bs, fool.
>>> Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble >>> books. Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it? >> Because we need fuck all in the way of new PC software >> and real programmers dont need books from Borders >> Bookstore or Barnes and Noble to write software. > Wrong.
Right.
> I am a programmer,
So am I.
> and that is exactly where I buy my books, if they have them.
You're a complete dud that needs those books ? No problem, we'll flush you where you belong and get an H1B that doesnt need them.
THATS why those operations dont have those books anymore, because NO ONE WAS BUYING THEM, fool.
> I now need to go to Amazon to get most of them, > 'cuz Borders doesn't have most of what I'm after.
Hardly the end of civilisation as we know it.
> Only reason I'm an American citizen who is a programmer > is because the stuff I work with has "Secret" stamped all > over it, so they CAN'T send it to India.
Then they get to wear fools like you that need those books.
> Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that lots of the > rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to accept, at crap wages.
And your Grossly Unfair Tax wont raise enough in federal taxes to pay you anymore, so you will be out on your lard arse and even Walmart wont employ you because sales of consumer goods will be completely fucked by your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax.
>>> There AREN'T any big-paying jobs even for the >>> intellectually elite, unles they've got a masters or better. >> Another bare faced pig ignorant lie, most obviously with doctors, >> lawyers, bankers, CEOs, the best salesmen, etc etc etc. > Most of those have a Masters degree, or better.
>>> Back in the 60's, a man could be prosperous all by himself while >>> working a factory job, supporting his family while his wife stayed home. >> Still can with non factory jobs that pay the same amount. > Those
Rally2xs wrote: > On Oct 31, 10:47 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote: >> Rally2xs wrote <snip>
>>> Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books. >>> Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it? >> Because we need fuck all in the way of new PC software >> and real programmers dont need books from Borders >> Bookstore or Barnes and Noble to write software.
> Wrong. I am a programmer, and that is exactly where I buy my books, > if they have them. I now need to go to Amazon to get most of them, > 'cuz Borders doesn't have most of what I'm after. Only reason I'm an > American citizen who is a programmer is because the stuff I work with > has "Secret" stamped all over it, so they CAN'T send it to India.
India is sucking exhaust right now. The Bangalore Bandit game is not sustainable.
And in effect, you're charging your employer rent on a security clearance :)
> Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that lots of > the rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to accept, at crap > wages.
No, things are actually picking up out there. People in industries with good prospects for export are hiring. Defense spend my not last much longer, though....
> Rally2xs wrote: > > On Oct 31, 10:47 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Rally2xs wrote > <snip>
> >>> Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books. > >>> Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it? > >> Because we need fuck all in the way of new PC software > >> and real programmers dont need books from Borders > >> Bookstore or Barnes and Noble to write software.
> > Wrong. I am a programmer, and that is exactly where I buy my books, > > if they have them. I now need to go to Amazon to get most of them, > > 'cuz Borders doesn't have most of what I'm after. Only reason I'm an > > American citizen who is a programmer is because the stuff I work with > > has "Secret" stamped all over it, so they CAN'T send it to India.
> India is sucking exhaust right now. The Bangalore Bandit game > is not sustainable.
Nevertheless, programming in the USA is doing very poorly. Have to watched the CNN Money website that lists the "best jobs"? In years past, "programmer" would be right up near the top. Now it doesn't even appear. When I got here (DC area) 13 years ago, the Washington Post had a whole section of job ads that was about 10 pages thick, and was all tech jobs. Now there is no such section. The programming jobs may or may not be in Bangalore, but the significant diference is that they are not _here._
> And in effect, you're charging your employer rent on a > security clearance :)
I work directly for the US Navy. Even if the programming was all done someplace else, we'd still have to test it. I can do that too... Not nearly as satisfying, tho.
> > Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that lots of > > the rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to accept, at crap > > wages.
> No, things are actually picking up out there. People in industries > with good prospects for export are hiring. Defense spend my not last > much longer, though....
It can pick up a little, sputter a little, etc. and so forth, but the cancer remains, and that cancer is the income tax. There is no recovery, long-term, while the income tax bleeds our industries dry. Without good paying jobs for all the people, which only manufacturing can deliver, there won't be enough people with enough money to tax to run the gov't. Therefore, the deficit spending will continue until the Chinese, Japanese, and Europeans wake up and see what a monumentally bad idea it is to loan us money. Then they will of course stop. That will be the day of economic armageddon. The USA will most likely spiral down into a Zimbabwe-like economy. At that time, I expect the fair tax will be passed, and maybe it won't be too late. But there will be massive economic devastation and a monumental debt to deal with if it gets that far. Better to pass the Fair Tax now, and become the manufacting center of the world again.
> Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.net> wrote >> Rally2xs wrote >>> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote >>>> Rally2xs wrote >>>>> Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books. >>>>> Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it? >>>> Because we need fuck all in the way of new PC software >>>> and real programmers dont need books from Borders >>>> Bookstore or Barnes and Noble to write software. >>> Wrong. I am a programmer, and that is exactly where I buy my books, >>> if they have them. I now need to go to Amazon to get most of them, >>> 'cuz Borders doesn't have most of what I'm after. Only reason I'm an >>> American citizen who is a programmer is because the stuff I work >>> with has "Secret" stamped all over it, so they CAN'T send it to India. >> India is sucking exhaust right now. The Bangalore Bandit game is not sustainable. > Nevertheless, programming in the USA is doing very poorly.
Yes, it got grossly oversupplied and then comprehensively shafted by India.
> Have to watched the CNN Money website that lists the "best jobs"? > In years past, "programmer" would be right up near the top. Now it > doesn't even appear. When I got here (DC area) 13 years ago, the > Washington Post had a whole section of job ads that was about 10 > pages thick, and was all tech jobs. Now there is no such section. > The programming jobs may or may not be in Bangalore, but the > significant diference is that they are not _here._
Yes, you chose the wrong field. That isnt true of the medical services industry.
And the bulk of that cant be offshored either.
>> And in effect, you're charging your employer rent on a security clearance :) > I work directly for the US Navy.
And it remains to be seen how long Congress will keep funding that.
You may well have fucked up very comprehensively there too.
> Even if the programming was all done someplace else,
Unlikely they'll ever be THAT stupid. They may well stop doing much more of it tho.
> we'd still have to test it.
Not if they stop paying for that to be developed.
> I can do that too... Not nearly as satisfying, tho. >>> Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that lots of the >>> rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to accept, at crap wages. >> No, things are actually picking up out there. People in industries >> with good prospects for export are hiring. Defense spend my >> not last much longer, though.... > It can pick up a little, sputter a little, etc. and so forth, but the > cancer remains, and that cancer is the income tax. There is no > recovery, long-term, while the income tax bleeds our industries dry.
Mindlessly silly. We saw the longest economic boom in the entire recorded history with that income tax universal.
> Without good paying jobs for all the people, which only manufacturing can deliver,
Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have never ever had a fucking clue about anything at all, ever.
Its a small part of any modern first world economy now.
> there won't be enough people with enough money to tax to run the gov't.
Even sillier. Those who dont work in manufacturing get paid a hell of a lot better than most of those who do still work in manufacturing and so pay taxes fine.
> Therefore, the deficit spending will continue until the > Chinese, Japanese, and Europeans wake up and see > what a monumentally bad idea it is to loan us money.
They actually have enough of a clue to have worked out that if the US economy fails, the rest of them will be in very deep shit indeed.
> Then they will of course stop.
They wont be that stupid, you watch.
> That will be the day of economic armageddon.
Have fun listing even a single example of that ever happening in the last thousand years.
Didnt even happen with Britain when it completely fucked up the return to the gold standard and that crippled their manufacturing exports very dramatically indeed.
> The USA will most likely spiral down into a Zimbabwe-like economy.
Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have never ever had a fucking clue about anything at all, ever.
> At that time, I expect the fair tax will be passed,
How odd that even Zimbabwe wasnt actually THAT stupid.
> and maybe it won't be too late. But there will be massive economic devastation
We didnt even see that during the great depression.
> and a monumental debt to deal with if it gets that far.
We had that during WW2 and it worked fine.
> Better to pass the Fair Tax now, and become the manufacting center of the world again.
Thats never going to happen again, fool. The world's moved on forever and what matters is the vastly lower labor costs in china now.
The US continues to be where much of the design work is done, particularly with the more high tech stuff like cpus and hard drives and military hardware etc.
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote >> Yes, you chose the wrong field. That >> isnt true of the medical services industry. > So would you recommend a person to get into healthcare now days Rod?
Yes, its one area where most of the work cant be readily exported and the demand for those services will keep increasing.
> Bottom line...where ARE the jobs in the USA say in two years? > Healthcare, engineering, etc?
One obvious area with engineering is the alternative stuff with the US pouring quite a bit of money into that.
I think health care has much better prospects tho.
Rally2xs wrote: > On Nov 1, 1:59 pm, Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.net> wrote: >> Rally2xs wrote: >>> On Oct 31, 10:47 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Rally2xs wrote >> <snip>
>>>>> Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books. >>>>> Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it? >>>> Because we need fuck all in the way of new PC software >>>> and real programmers dont need books from Borders >>>> Bookstore or Barnes and Noble to write software. >>> Wrong. I am a programmer, and that is exactly where I buy my books, >>> if they have them. I now need to go to Amazon to get most of them, >>> 'cuz Borders doesn't have most of what I'm after. Only reason I'm an >>> American citizen who is a programmer is because the stuff I work with >>> has "Secret" stamped all over it, so they CAN'T send it to India. >> India is sucking exhaust right now. The Bangalore Bandit game >> is not sustainable.
> Nevertheless, programming in the USA is doing very poorly. Have to > watched the CNN Money website that lists the "best jobs"? In years > past, "programmer" would be right up near the top. Now it doesn't > even appear. When I got here (DC area) 13 years ago, the Washington > Post had a whole section of job ads that was about 10 pages thick, and > was all tech jobs. Now there is no such section. The programming > jobs may or may not be in Bangalore, but the significant diference is > that they are not _here._
I've been in programming for 24 years. The whole field got oversold, about ... 13 or so years ago. But there's still going to be demand for people. In addition to Bangalore Bandits, other factors include increased webification, a general sag in telecomms ( largely from rapacious abuse by the investment community ) and free software.
Also WRT to the WaPo - the jobs aren't listed there any more - they are online. And increasingly, we're dependent on networking tools and knowing good - emphasis *good* - recruiters.
Now - the *military* will see significant drop in demand, as that whole thing slides off into the sunset. In the private sector, there's a different problem - employers getting much, much dumber.
>> And in effect, you're charging your employer rent on a >> security clearance :)
> I work directly for the US Navy. Even if the programming was all done > someplace else, we'd still have to test it. I can do that too... Not > nearly as satisfying, tho.
No, I understand. Programming is testing, ultimately.
>>> Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that lots of >>> the rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to accept, at crap >>> wages. >> No, things are actually picking up out there. People in industries >> with good prospects for export are hiring. Defense spend my not last >> much longer, though....
> It can pick up a little, sputter a little, etc. and so forth, but the > cancer remains, and that cancer is the income tax. There is no > recovery, long-term, while the income tax bleeds our industries dry. > Without good paying jobs for all the people, which only manufacturing > can deliver, there won't be enough people with enough money to tax to > run the gov't. Therefore, the deficit spending will continue until > the Chinese, Japanese, and Europeans wake up and see what a > monumentally bad idea it is to loan us money.
Yes. Three things, though: 1) The dollar cannot be the benchmark currency forever. But we don't have to outrun the bear, we just have to outrun Europe. And they're in worse shape than we are, in every dimension except those published by propaganda centers like the WHO.
2) At some point, China will develop a consumer class, and we'll be able to trade, roughly, goods for goods. Right now is a solution to the problem the British ran against which led to the Boxer Rebellion. How this will play out remains to be seen - it's quite risky. But the cheapness of Chinese goods has made the quality of life during this time of flat wages much more tolerable. In the end, it's not really the number that matters, it's what that number will buy, and that is actually pretty good, once you get outside of housing. And housing is very sharply correcting as we speak...
3) The income tax is not optimal, but it's not that far off. And the problem is that "government load" in all directions is much lower here than it is in China, India, Europe or Japan.
The bottom line is that we can't have the sort of high growth we've seen and a more-extensive social insurance system. Niall Ferguson has discussed this at length in "The Ascent of Money" online.
> Then they will of > course stop. That will be the day of economic armageddon.
Not with a bang, but with a whimper.
> The USA > will most likely spiral down into a Zimbabwe-like economy.
Not likely. Zimbabwe has nothing anyone else wants. Of course it *can* happen, but ... government debt is a funny thing.
> At that > time, I expect the fair tax will be passed, and maybe it won't be too > late. But there will be massive economic devastation and a monumental > debt to deal with if it gets that far. Better to pass the Fair Tax > now, and become the manufacting center of the world again.
But we don't *want* manufacturing jobs. Trust me on this; I've seen it first hand. And I've posted "We Can't Make It Here Anymore" lyrics on Usenet before...
> Rally2xs wrote: > > On Nov 1, 1:59 pm, Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.net> wrote: > >> Rally2xs wrote: > >>> On Oct 31, 10:47 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> Rally2xs wrote > >> <snip>
> >>>>> Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books. > >>>>> Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it? > >>>> Because we need fuck all in the way of new PC software > >>>> and real programmers dont need books from Borders > >>>> Bookstore or Barnes and Noble to write software. > >>> Wrong. I am a programmer, and that is exactly where I buy my books, > >>> if they have them. I now need to go to Amazon to get most of them, > >>> 'cuz Borders doesn't have most of what I'm after. Only reason I'm an > >>> American citizen who is a programmer is because the stuff I work with > >>> has "Secret" stamped all over it, so they CAN'T send it to India. > >> India is sucking exhaust right now. The Bangalore Bandit game > >> is not sustainable.
> > Nevertheless, programming in the USA is doing very poorly. Have to > > watched the CNN Money website that lists the "best jobs"? In years > > past, "programmer" would be right up near the top. Now it doesn't > > even appear. When I got here (DC area) 13 years ago, the Washington > > Post had a whole section of job ads that was about 10 pages thick, and > > was all tech jobs. Now there is no such section. The programming > > jobs may or may not be in Bangalore, but the significant diference is > > that they are not _here._
> I've been in programming for 24 years. The whole field got > oversold, about ... 13 or so years ago. But there's still > going to be demand for people. In addition to Bangalore > Bandits, other factors include increased webification, > a general sag in telecomms ( largely from rapacious abuse > by the investment community ) and free software.
Yeah, that free software thing is especially nuts. Work for free on some piece of software? Er... why? Maybe it's just 'cuz I'm 62, but that idea just doesn't seem to have any wings.
As a user, I _know_ I hate it - there's nobody to call up for tech support most of the time, and the documentation so far on some of the stuff I've _tried_ to use always sucks. There's a Unix-based UML drawing program that supposedly creates diagrams from source code. Not on my computer it doesn't. It crashes. Documentation? Some guy wrote something about 4 revisions back, that doesn't reflect the state of the thing now at all, but who ya' gonna complain to? There's no one that's paid to give a d***, so that'd likely be futile anyway.
> Also WRT to the WaPo - the jobs aren't listed there any more - they > are online. And increasingly, we're dependent on networking tools > and knowing good - emphasis *good* - recruiters.
Everything's on Dice, eh?
> Now - the *military* will see significant drop in demand, as > that whole thing slides off into the sunset. In the private > sector, there's a different problem - employers getting much, > much dumber.
I wouldn't bet on that. Soon's somebody starts getting complacent, we'll get hit again, maybe lose more than 3,000 people to some WMD thing like Anthrax, and then there'll be a new region of the world that needs their a**'s kicked, and we'll be developing more Tomahawk software to do new and wonderous things...
> >> And in effect, you're charging your employer rent on a > >> security clearance :)
> > I work directly for the US Navy. Even if the programming was all done > > someplace else, we'd still have to test it. I can do that too... Not > > nearly as satisfying, tho.
> No, I understand. Programming is testing, ultimately.
> >>> Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that lots of > >>> the rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to accept, at crap > >>> wages. > >> No, things are actually picking up out there. People in industries > >> with good prospects for export are hiring. Defense spend my not last > >> much longer, though....
> > It can pick up a little, sputter a little, etc. and so forth, but the > > cancer remains, and that cancer is the income tax. There is no > > recovery, long-term, while the income tax bleeds our industries dry. > > Without good paying jobs for all the people, which only manufacturing > > can deliver, there won't be enough people with enough money to tax to > > run the gov't. Therefore, the deficit spending will continue until > > the Chinese, Japanese, and Europeans wake up and see what a > > monumentally bad idea it is to loan us money.
> Yes. Three things, though: > 1) The dollar cannot be the benchmark currency forever. But we don't > have to outrun the bear, we just have to outrun Europe. And they're > in worse shape than we are, in every dimension except those > published by propaganda centers like the WHO.
Well, we could give it a try at being the benchmark currency forever. No need to give it up willingly.
> 2) At some point, China will develop a consumer class, and we'll be able > to trade, roughly, goods for goods.
Not if we're not producing anything.
> Right now is a solution to the > problem the British ran against which led to the Boxer > Rebellion. How this will play out remains to be seen - it's quite > risky. But the cheapness of Chinese goods has made the quality of life > during this time of flat wages much more tolerable. In the end, it's > not really the number that matters, it's what that number will buy, and > that is actually pretty good, once you get outside of housing. And > housing is very sharply correcting as we speak...
> 3) The income tax is not optimal, but it's not that far off. And the > problem is that "government load" in all directions is much lower here > than it is in China, India, Europe or Japan.
Government load?
And the income tax is and has been a disaster for our economy. 2nd worst idea this country has ever had, right behind slavery.
> The bottom line is that we can't have the sort of high growth we've > seen and a more-extensive social insurance system. Niall Ferguson has > discussed this at length in "The Ascent of Money" online.
We're not going to need the social insurance system if we can get everyone a good job, and that doesn't mean $7 / hr at Wal Mart.
> > Then they will of > > course stop. That will be the day of economic armageddon.
> Not with a bang, but with a whimper.
Again, say what? That day will be instant balanced budget day. Sounds like a bang to me.
> > The USA > > will most likely spiral down into a Zimbabwe-like economy.
> Not likely. Zimbabwe has nothing anyone else wants. Of course it > *can* happen, but ... government debt is a funny thing.
I just mean that we're headed for a 3rd world economy - no industry, a very, very wealthy class, and a very, very poor class, and nobody in between.
> > At that > > time, I expect thefair taxwill be passed, and maybe it won't be too > > late. But there will be massive economic devastation and a monumental > > debt to deal with if it gets that far. Better to pass theFair Tax > > now, and become the manufacting center of the world again.
> But we don't *want* manufacturing jobs. Trust me on this; I've seen > it first hand. And I've posted "We Can't Make It Here Anymore" lyrics on > Usenet before...
Who doesn't want manufacturing? I sure as H want manufacturing. This is the only way that we can give those people that work with their hands something prosperous to do. Without manufacturing, those guys that I said can wire and plumb a factory 'fore you can turn around twice don't have anything significant to do, and end up at... Wal Mart, stocking the shelves or something. Or, working for some "small business" that consists of 10 people total, including the owner, paying crap wages for people to go out and replace faucet washers.
I want all those guys employed like that, so they have money, a good life, and most importantly can be taxed and don't need public support. We need jobs that are doable by someone with an IQ of 80, for whom college is a total waste of time, but can be seriously productive in a manufacturing environment, and virtually nowhere else.
> Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.net> wrote >> Rally2xs wrote >>> Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.net> wrote >>>> Rally2xs wrote >>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote >>>>>> Rally2xs wrote >>>>>>> Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books. >>>>>>> Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it? >>>>>> Because we need fuck all in the way of new PC software >>>>>> and real programmers dont need books from Borders >>>>>> Bookstore or Barnes and Noble to write software. >>>>> Wrong. I am a programmer, and that is exactly where I buy my >>>>> books, if they have them. I now need to go to Amazon to get most >>>>> of them, 'cuz Borders doesn't have most of what I'm after. Only >>>>> reason I'm an American citizen who is a programmer is because the >>>>> stuff I work with has "Secret" stamped all over it, so they CAN'T >>>>> send it to India. >>>> India is sucking exhaust right now. The Bangalore Bandit game >>>> is not sustainable. >>> Nevertheless, programming in the USA is doing very poorly. Have to >>> watched the CNN Money website that lists the "best jobs"? In years >>> past, "programmer" would be right up near the top. Now it doesn't >>> even appear. When I got here (DC area) 13 years ago, the Washington >>> Post had a whole section of job ads that was about 10 pages thick, >>> and was all tech jobs. Now there is no such section. The programming >>> jobs may or may not be in Bangalore, but the significant diference >>> is that they are not _here._ >> I've been in programming for 24 years. The whole field got >> oversold, about ... 13 or so years ago. But there's still >> going to be demand for people. In addition to Bangalore >> Bandits, other factors include increased webification, >> a general sag in telecomms ( largely from rapacious abuse >> by the investment community ) and free software. > Yeah, that free software thing is especially nuts. > Work for free on some piece of software? Er... why?
For the same reason that some those to volunteer for unpaid work.
> Maybe it's just 'cuz I'm 62, but that idea just doesn't seem to have any wings.
Try telling that to those who use Linux. Dont be TOO surprised when they just laugh in your face.
> As a user, I _know_ I hate it
Your problem.
> - there's nobody to call up for tech support most of the time,
I've never been stupid enough to bother with any MS product.
> and the documentation so far on some of > the stuff I've _tried_ to use always sucks.
Corse that never ever happens with stuff you pay for, eh ?
> There's a Unix-based UML drawing program that supposedly creates > diagrams from source code. Not on my computer it doesn't. It crashes.
Corse that never ever happens with stuff you pay for, eh ?
> Documentation? Some guy wrote something about 4 revisions > back, that doesn't reflect the state of the thing now at all,
Corse that never ever happens with stuff you pay for, eh ?
> but who ya' gonna complain to? There's no one that's > paid to give a d***, so that'd likely be futile anyway.
Corse that never ever happens with stuff you pay for, eh ?
>> Also WRT to the WaPo - the jobs aren't listed there any more - they are online.
And you didnt even notice. Just another dinosaur WAY past its useby date.
>> And increasingly, we're dependent on networking tools >> and knowing good - emphasis *good* - recruiters. > Everything's on Dice, eh? >> Now - the *military* will see significant drop in demand, as that >> whole thing slides off into the sunset. In the private sector, there's >> a different problem - employers getting much, much dumber. > I wouldn't bet on that.
I would. The navy is just a tad useless in Afghanistan.
> Soon's somebody starts getting complacent, we'll get hit again, > maybe lose more than 3,000 people to some WMD thing like > Anthrax, and then there'll be a new region of the world that > needs their a**'s kicked, and we'll be developing more > Tomahawk software to do new and wonderous things...
>>>> And in effect, you're charging your employer rent on a >>>> security clearance :) >>> I work directly for the US Navy. Even if the programming >>> was all done someplace else, we'd still have to test it. >>> I can do that too... Not nearly as satisfying, tho. >> No, I understand. Programming is testing, ultimately. > Uh-huh... >>>>> Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that lots >>>>> of the rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to accept, at >>>>> crap wages. >>>> No, things are actually picking up out there. People in industries >>>> with good prospects for export are hiring. Defense spend my not >>>> last much longer, though.... >>> It can pick up a little, sputter a little, etc. and so forth, but >>> the cancer remains, and that cancer is the income tax. There is no >>> recovery, long-term, while the income tax bleeds our industries dry. >>> Without good paying jobs for all the people, which only >>> manufacturing can deliver, there won't be enough people with enough >>> money to tax to run the gov't. Therefore, the deficit spending will >>> continue until the Chinese, Japanese, and Europeans wake up and see >>> what a monumentally bad idea it is to loan us money. >> Yes. Three things, though: >> 1) The dollar cannot be the benchmark currency forever. But we >> don't have to outrun the bear, we just have to outrun Europe. And >> they're in worse shape than we are, in every dimension except >> those published by propaganda centers like the WHO. > Well, we could give it a try at being the benchmark currency forever.
Nothing is forever, thats pissing into the wind, King Canute.
> No need to give it up willingly.
No one is giving up willingly.
>> 2) At some point, China will develop a consumer class, >> and we'll be able to trade, roughly, goods for goods. > Not if we're not producing anything.
That never happens. The US still produces pharmaceuticals, aircraft, military harware, PC software, movies, TV series, music, etc etc etc and is STILL where the absolute vast bulk of technology is fully commercialised first, most recenty with the PC, the net, DNA, ebay, paypal, Walmart, derivatisation, securitization, CDSs etc etc etc.
Bet you aint bothered with much in the way of chinese movies, TV series, music etc etc etc.
>> Right now is a solution to the >> problem the British ran against which led to the Boxer >> Rebellion. How this will play out remains to be seen - it's quite >> risky. But the cheapness of Chinese goods has made the quality of >> life during this time of flat wages much more tolerable. In the end, >> it's not really the number that matters, it's what that number will >> buy, and that is actually pretty good, once you get outside of >> housing. And housing is very sharply correcting as we speak... >> 3) The income tax is not optimal, but it's not that far off. And the >> problem is that "government load" in all directions is much lower >> here than it is in China, India, Europe or Japan. > Government load?
What the govt does thats paid for by taxation.
> And the income tax is and has been a disaster for our economy. > 2nd worst idea this country has ever had, right behind slavery.
Have fun listing even a single example of a modern first world economy that works without it.
>> The bottom line is that we can't have the sort of high growth we've >> seen and a more-extensive social insurance system. Niall Ferguson >> has discussed this at length in "The Ascent of Money" online. > We're not going to need the social insurance > system if we can get everyone a good job,
Not even possible. In spades with the increasing automation of so much of what happens in a modern first world economy.
> and that doesn't mean $7 / hr at Wal Mart.
If you dont like that sort of work, you're fucked. No one has ever worked out how to only have jobs much better than that and eliminating income tax certainly wont do that.
We havent worked out how to automate the cleaning of our houses and streets, so someone has to do that sort of shit work.
>>> Then they will of course stop. That will be the day of economic armageddon. >> Not with a bang, but with a whimper. > Again, say what? That day will be instant balanced budget day.
Just another of your silly little fantasys.
> Sounds like a bang to me.
Only because you are a rabid loon that doesnt have a clue about how modern first world economys actually work, or anything else at all either.
>>> The USA will most likely spiral down into a Zimbabwe-like economy. >> Not likely. Zimbabwe has nothing anyone else wants. Of course >> it *can* happen, but ... government debt is a funny thing. > I just mean that we're headed for a 3rd world economy - no industry, a very, > very wealthy class, and a very, very poor class, and nobody in between.
Thats nothing like Zimbabwe and wont happen with a single modern first world country anyway.
You dont even get that in places like Lichtenstein which have fuck all industry.
>>> At that time, I expect thefair taxwill be passed, and maybe it won't >>> be too late. But there will be massive economic devastation and a >>> monumental debt to deal with if it gets that far. Better to pass the >>> Fair Tax now, and become the manufacting center of the world again. >> But we don't *want* manufacturing jobs. Trust me on this; I've seen >> it first hand. And I've posted "We Can't Make It Here Anymore" >> lyrics on Usenet before... > Who doesn't want manufacturing? I sure as H want manufacturing.
Because you are a dinosaur furiously 'living' in the past.
And you wont be struck down if you use the word hell.
> This is the only way that we can give those people that > work with their hands something prosperous to do.
Wrong, as always. There's always building houses and roads and bridges and buildings etc etc etc. None of that work is readily exportable either.
Rally2xs wrote: > On Nov 1, 8:31 pm, Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.net> wrote: >> Rally2xs wrote: >>> On Nov 1, 1:59 pm, Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.net> wrote: >>>> Rally2xs wrote: >>>>> On Oct 31, 10:47 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> Rally2xs wrote >>>> <snip> >>>>>>> Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books. >>>>>>> Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it? >>>>>> Because we need fuck all in the way of new PC software >>>>>> and real programmers dont need books from Borders >>>>>> Bookstore or Barnes and Noble to write software. >>>>> Wrong. I am a programmer, and that is exactly where I buy my books, >>>>> if they have them. I now need to go to Amazon to get most of them, >>>>> 'cuz Borders doesn't have most of what I'm after. Only reason I'm an >>>>> American citizen who is a programmer is because the stuff I work with >>>>> has "Secret" stamped all over it, so they CAN'T send it to India. >>>> India is sucking exhaust right now. The Bangalore Bandit game >>>> is not sustainable. >>> Nevertheless, programming in the USA is doing very poorly. Have to >>> watched the CNN Money website that lists the "best jobs"? In years >>> past, "programmer" would be right up near the top. Now it doesn't >>> even appear. When I got here (DC area) 13 years ago, the Washington >>> Post had a whole section of job ads that was about 10 pages thick, and >>> was all tech jobs. Now there is no such section. The programming >>> jobs may or may not be in Bangalore, but the significant diference is >>> that they are not _here._ >> I've been in programming for 24 years. The whole field got >> oversold, about ... 13 or so years ago. But there's still >> going to be demand for people. In addition to Bangalore >> Bandits, other factors include increased webification, >> a general sag in telecomms ( largely from rapacious abuse >> by the investment community ) and free software.
> Yeah, that free software thing is especially nuts. Work for free on > some piece of software? Er... why? Maybe it's just 'cuz I'm 62, but > that idea just doesn't seem to have any wings.
But it's mostly won.
> As a user, I _know_ I hate it - there's nobody to call up for tech > support most of the time, and the documentation so far on some of the > stuff I've _tried_ to use always sucks.
I can't count the number of times I've called tech support on one finger. If it don't work, over the side. Next.
> There's a Unix-based UML > drawing program that supposedly creates diagrams from source code. > Not on my computer it doesn't. It crashes. Documentation? Some guy > wrote something about 4 revisions back, that doesn't reflect the state > of the thing now at all, but who ya' gonna complain to? There's no > one that's paid to give a d***, so that'd likely be futile anyway.
Nobody should be a programmer. I used to think it took five years, but I was wrong - it takes ten years, and they won't leave the toolchain under you long enough for that to happen.
>> Also WRT to the WaPo - the jobs aren't listed there any more - they >> are online. And increasingly, we're dependent on networking tools >> and knowing good - emphasis *good* - recruiters.
> Everything's on Dice, eh?
Well.. used to be. Try Indeed now. It'll be different next week.
>> Now - the *military* will see significant drop in demand, as >> that whole thing slides off into the sunset. In the private >> sector, there's a different problem - employers getting much, >> much dumber.
> I wouldn't bet on that. Soon's somebody starts getting complacent, > we'll get hit again, maybe lose more than 3,000 people to some WMD > thing like Anthrax, and then there'll be a new region of the world > that needs their a**'s kicked, and we'll be developing more Tomahawk > software to do new and wonderous things...
Okay then.... Look... all the Visa and Mastercharge the Mujahadeen used to finance all that... expired.
Sorry.
>>>> And in effect, you're charging your employer rent on a >>>> security clearance :) >>> I work directly for the US Navy. Even if the programming was all done >>> someplace else, we'd still have to test it. I can do that too... Not >>> nearly as satisfying, tho. >> No, I understand. Programming is testing, ultimately.
>>>>> Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that lots of >>>>> the rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to accept, at crap >>>>> wages. >>>> No, things are actually picking up out there. People in industries >>>> with good prospects for export are hiring. Defense spend my not last >>>> much longer, though.... >>> It can pick up a little, sputter a little, etc. and so forth, but the >>> cancer remains, and that cancer is the income tax. There is no >>> recovery, long-term, while the income tax bleeds our industries dry. >>> Without good paying jobs for all the people, which only manufacturing >>> can deliver, there won't be enough people with enough money to tax to >>> run the gov't. Therefore, the deficit spending will continue until >>> the Chinese, Japanese, and Europeans wake up and see what a >>> monumentally bad idea it is to loan us money. >> Yes. Three things, though: >> 1) The dollar cannot be the benchmark currency forever. But we don't >> have to outrun the bear, we just have to outrun Europe. And they're >> in worse shape than we are, in every dimension except those >> published by propaganda centers like the WHO.
> Well, we could give it a try at being the benchmark currency forever. > No need to give it up willingly.
What is the point? Foam-finger "we're #1" rot? That gains us nothing.
>> 2) At some point, China will develop a consumer class, and we'll be able >> to trade, roughly, goods for goods.
> Not if we're not producing anything.
Well, I'm trying. me and a half dozen other guys.
>> Right now is a solution to the >> problem the British ran against which led to the Boxer >> Rebellion. How this will play out remains to be seen - it's quite >> risky. But the cheapness of Chinese goods has made the quality of life >> during this time of flat wages much more tolerable. In the end, it's >> not really the number that matters, it's what that number will buy, and >> that is actually pretty good, once you get outside of housing. And >> housing is very sharply correcting as we speak...
>> 3) The income tax is not optimal, but it's not that far off. And the >> problem is that "government load" in all directions is much lower here >> than it is in China, India, Europe or Japan.
> Government load?
See also Kirchoff.
> And the income tax is and has been a disaster for our economy. 2nd > worst idea this country has ever had, right behind slavery.
Yet it saw a spike in GDP pretty much unexplained in human history. In real, inflation adjusted GDP.
>> The bottom line is that we can't have the sort of high growth we've >> seen and a more-extensive social insurance system. Niall Ferguson has >> discussed this at length in "The Ascent of Money" online.
> We're not going to need the social insurance system if we can get > everyone a good job, and that doesn't mean $7 / hr at Wal Mart.
Don't bother them with details like that.
>>> Then they will of >>> course stop. That will be the day of economic armageddon. >> Not with a bang, but with a whimper.
> Again, say what? That day will be instant balanced budget day. > Sounds like a bang to me.
There will be no sharp edge. It will be a slow decay. "Not with a bang but with a whimper..."
>>> The USA >>> will most likely spiral down into a Zimbabwe-like economy. >> Not likely. Zimbabwe has nothing anyone else wants. Of course it >> *can* happen, but ... government debt is a funny thing.
> I just mean that we're headed for a 3rd world economy - no industry, a > very, very wealthy class, and a very, very poor class, and nobody in > between.
That's a pretty poor analysis at best. Most people *are* in between, and they'll be fine. I expect. If I'm wrong. it really doesn't matter...
>>> At that >>> time, I expect thefair taxwill be passed, and maybe it won't be too >>> late. But there will be massive economic devastation and a monumental >>> debt to deal with if it gets that far. Better to pass theFair Tax >>> now, and become the manufacting center of the world again. >> But we don't *want* manufacturing jobs. Trust me on this; I've seen >> it first hand. And I've posted "We Can't Make It Here Anymore" lyrics on >> Usenet before...
> Who doesn't want manufacturing? I sure as H want manufacturing.
Nobody wants it. I saw it firsthand. When people get to vote, the factory goes. People build up resentment like scale in a copper water pipe well grounded.
> This > is the only way that we can give those people that work with their > hands something prosperous to do. Without manufacturing, those guys > that I said can wire and plumb a factory 'fore you can turn around > twice don't have anything significant to do, and end up at... Wal > Mart, stocking the shelves or something.
Yeah, but do you consciously buy from them? I try, but it's hopeless.
> Or, working for some "small > business" that consists of 10 people total, including the owner, > paying crap wages for people to go out and replace faucet washers.
> I want all those guys employed like that, so they have money, a good > life, and most importantly can be taxed and don't need public > support. We need jobs that are doable by someone with an IQ of 80, > for whom college is a total waste of time, but can be seriously > productive in a manufacturing environment, and virtually nowhere else.
> Dave Head
>>> Dave Head >>>> -- >>>> Les Cargill >> -- >> Les Cargill- Hide quoted text -
> Rally2xs wrote: > > On Nov 1, 8:31 pm, Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.net> wrote: > >> Rally2xs wrote: > >>> On Nov 1, 1:59 pm, Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.net> wrote: > >>>> Rally2xs wrote: > >>>>> On Oct 31, 10:47 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>>> Rally2xs wrote > >>>> <snip> > >>>>>>> Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books. > >>>>>>> Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it? > >>>>>> Because we need fuck all in the way of new PC software > >>>>>> and real programmers dont need books from Borders > >>>>>> Bookstore or Barnes and Noble to write software. > >>>>> Wrong. I am a programmer, and that is exactly where I buy my books, > >>>>> if they have them. I now need to go to Amazon to get most of them, > >>>>> 'cuz Borders doesn't have most of what I'm after. Only reason I'm an > >>>>> American citizen who is a programmer is because the stuff I work with > >>>>> has "Secret" stamped all over it, so they CAN'T send it to India. > >>>> India is sucking exhaust right now. The Bangalore Bandit game > >>>> is not sustainable. > >>> Nevertheless, programming in the USA is doing very poorly. Have to > >>> watched the CNN Money website that lists the "best jobs"? In years > >>> past, "programmer" would be right up near the top. Now it doesn't > >>> even appear. When I got here (DC area) 13 years ago, the Washington > >>> Post had a whole section of job ads that was about 10 pages thick, and > >>> was all tech jobs. Now there is no such section. The programming > >>> jobs may or may not be in Bangalore, but the significant diference is > >>> that they are not _here._ > >> I've been in programming for 24 years. The whole field got > >> oversold, about ... 13 or so years ago. But there's still > >> going to be demand for people. In addition to Bangalore > >> Bandits, other factors include increased webification, > >> a general sag in telecomms ( largely from rapacious abuse > >> by the investment community ) and free software.
> > Yeah, that free software thing is especially nuts. Work for free on > > some piece of software? Er... why? Maybe it's just 'cuz I'm 62, but > > that idea just doesn't seem to have any wings.
> But it's mostly won.
I don't think so. There's still nothing like Photoshop. It's as good as it is because people with PHD behind their names figure out new and wonderous algorithms to manipulate graphical information with. Why? 'Cuz they get paid to. Not happenin' with "free" software. Any games as good as the Quake and Doom and etc. series that are free? Don't think so. And, I don't have to wonder whether a commercial piece of software is any good if it's been around for any time at all. If it has, its only because people have been buying it.
> > As a user, I _know_ I hate it - there's nobody to call up for tech > > support most of the time, and the documentation so far on some of the > > stuff I've _tried_ to use always sucks.
> I can't count the number of times I've called tech support on > one finger. If it don't work, over the side. Next.
Can't necessarily deep-6 something that doesn't work, if it happens to be the tool your organization is using to produce something. Get a dud of an open source program, have a problem, and you're up the creek unless someone there can fix it. Shouldn't have to divert valuable production time to fix your tools, y'know?
> > There's a Unix-based UML > > drawing program that supposedly creates diagrams from source code. > > Not on my computer it doesn't. It crashes. Documentation? Some guy > > wrote something about 4 revisions back, that doesn't reflect the state > > of the thing now at all, but who ya' gonna complain to? There's no > > one that's paid to give a d***, so that'd likely be futile anyway.
> Nobody should be a programmer. I used to think it took five years, but > I was wrong - it takes ten years, and they won't leave the toolchain > under you long enough for that to happen.
Too bad its such fun, satisfying work, eh? Oh, well, only the Indians and a few others can have that sort of fun any more.
> >> Also WRT to the WaPo - the jobs aren't listed there any more - they > >> are online. And increasingly, we're dependent on networking tools > >> and knowing good - emphasis *good* - recruiters.
> > Everything's on Dice, eh?
> Well.. used to be. Try Indeed now. It'll be different next week.
Ha, how 'bout that. Didn't know it was there. Still doesn't have any SW Development jobs in Iraq or Afghanistan. Missed that one job a couple years ago that was offered where I work. Make a pile of mony in return for maybe getting shot at. Finally got a tech writing job near Baghdad. Did get shot at. Did make a pile. Will retire earlier than I could have otherwise... Maybe something I did will save a (US, or even allied) soldier someday.... hoping...
> >> Now - the *military* will see significant drop in demand, as > >> that whole thing slides off into the sunset. In the private > >> sector, there's a different problem - employers getting much, > >> much dumber.
> > I wouldn't bet on that. Soon's somebody starts getting complacent, > > we'll get hit again, maybe lose more than 3,000 people to some WMD > > thing like Anthrax, and then there'll be a new region of the world > > that needs their a**'s kicked, and we'll be developing more Tomahawk > > software to do new and wonderous things...
> Okay then.... > Look... all the Visa and Mastercharge the Mujahadeen used > to finance all that... expired.
> Sorry.
Doesn't matter. They'll find a way, 1000's of Americans will die, our side will say in unison, "Told ya' so", and then we'll be off with another exeditionary force...
> >>>> And in effect, you're charging your employer rent on a > >>>> security clearance :) > >>> I work directly for the US Navy. Even if the programming was all done > >>> someplace else, we'd still have to test it. I can do that too... Not > >>> nearly as satisfying, tho. > >> No, I understand. Programming is testing, ultimately.
> > Uh-huh...
> Yep. Funny you should say that... > >>>>> Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that lots of > >>>>> the rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to accept, at crap > >>>>> wages. > >>>> No, things are actually picking up out there. People in industries > >>>> with good prospects for export are hiring. Defense spend my not last > >>>> much longer, though.... > >>> It can pick up a little, sputter a little, etc. and so forth, but the > >>> cancer remains, and that cancer is the income tax. There is no > >>> recovery, long-term, while the income tax bleeds our industries dry. > >>> Without good paying jobs for all the people, which only manufacturing > >>> can deliver, there won't be enough people with enough money to tax to > >>> run the gov't. Therefore, the deficit spending will continue until > >>> the Chinese, Japanese, and Europeans wake up and see what a > >>> monumentally bad idea it is to loan us money. > >> Yes. Three things, though: > >> 1) The dollar cannot be the benchmark currency forever. But we don't > >> have to outrun the bear, we just have to outrun Europe. And they're > >> in worse shape than we are, in every dimension except those > >> published by propaganda centers like the WHO.
> > Well, we could give it a try at being the benchmark currency forever. > > No need to give it up willingly.
> What is the point? Foam-finger "we're #1" rot? That gains us nothing.
I'm not sure what it gains us, either, other than if it's referenced to gold, I think that due to our dollar devaluation binge, oil will go up faster in price. That would be a bad thing.
> >> 2) At some point, China will develop a consumer class, and we'll be able > >> to trade, roughly, goods for goods.
> > Not if we're not producing anything.
> Well, I'm trying. me and a half dozen other guys.
We need to be producing something that is valuable andt that millions of people want. Cars come to mind, but we have to do it profitably. The Fair Tax would make that possible, but I don't know another way to do it.
> >> Right now is a solution to the > >> problem the British ran against which led to the Boxer > >> Rebellion. How this will play out remains to be seen - it's quite > >> risky. But the cheapness of Chinese goods has made the quality of life > >> during this time of flat wages much more tolerable. In the end, it's > >> not really the number that matters, it's what that number will buy, and > >> that is actually pretty good, once you get outside of housing. And > >> housing is very sharply correcting as we speak...
> >> 3) The income tax is not optimal, but it's not that far off. And the > >> problem is that "government load" in all directions is much lower here > >> than it is in China, India, Europe or Japan.
> > Government load?
> See also Kirchoff.
Kirchoff made a law of electricity that I dimly remember from early training. Oh, I remember how the law works, I just don't remember which law was invented by which guy... <G>
> > And the income tax is and has been a disaster for our economy. 2nd > > worst idea this country has ever had, right behind slavery.
> Yet it saw a spike in GDP pretty much unexplained in human history. In > real, inflation adjusted GDP.
You mean, the cash for clunkers spike? That one?
> >> The bottom line is that we can't have the sort of high growth we've > >> seen and a more-extensive social insurance system. Niall Ferguson has > >> discussed this at length in "The Ascent of Money" online.
> > We're not going to need the social insurance system if we can get > > everyone a good job, and that doesn't mean $7 / hr at Wal Mart.
Shaun Eli wrote: > Food and wine. That's what saving all the money on everything else is > for!
I'm inclined to agree.
About twice a week out to a restaurant and a day trip over the weekend. But then I live in a city with lots of restaurant and entertainment choices. Everything else is dead frugal.
If you are not living it up a bit, what's the point.
Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.net> wrote: >Nobody should be a programmer. I used to think it took five years, but >I was wrong - it takes ten years, and they won't leave the toolchain >under you long enough for that to happen.
> Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.net> wrote >> Rally2xs wrote >>> Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.net> wrote >>>> Rally2xs wrote >>>>> Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.net> wrote >>>>>> Rally2xs wrote >>>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote >>>>>>>> Rally2xs wrote >>>>>>>>> Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books. >>>>>>>>> Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it? >>>>>>>> Because we need fuck all in the way of new PC software >>>>>>>> and real programmers dont need books from Borders >>>>>>>> Bookstore or Barnes and Noble to write software. >>>>>>> Wrong. I am a programmer, and that is exactly where I buy my >>>>>>> books, if they have them. I now need to go to Amazon to get >>>>>>> most of them, 'cuz Borders doesn't have most of what I'm after. >>>>>>> Only reason I'm an American citizen who is a programmer is >>>>>>> because the stuff I work with has "Secret" stamped all over it, >>>>>>> so they CAN'T send it to India. >>>>>> India is sucking exhaust right now. The Bangalore Bandit game is not sustainable. >>>>> Nevertheless, programming in the USA is doing very poorly. Have to >>>>> watched the CNN Money website that lists the "best jobs"? In years >>>>> past, "programmer" would be right up near the top. Now it doesn't >>>>> even appear. When I got here (DC area) 13 years ago, the >>>>> Washington Post had a whole section of job ads that was about 10 >>>>> pages thick, and was all tech jobs. Now there is no such section. >>>>> The programming jobs may or may not be in Bangalore, >>>>> but the significant diference is that they are not _here._ >>>> I've been in programming for 24 years. The whole field got >>>> oversold, about ... 13 or so years ago. But there's still >>>> going to be demand for people. In addition to Bangalore >>>> Bandits, other factors include increased webification, >>>> a general sag in telecomms ( largely from rapacious abuse >>>> by the investment community ) and free software. >>> Yeah, that free software thing is especially nuts. Work for free on >>> some piece of software? Er... why? Maybe it's just 'cuz I'm 62, but >>> that idea just doesn't seem to have any wings. >> But it's mostly won. > I don't think so. There's still nothing like Photoshop. It's as good > as it is because people with PHD behind their names figure out new and > wonderous algorithms to manipulate graphical information with. Why? > 'Cuz they get paid to. Not happenin' with "free" software. Any games > as good as the Quake and Doom and etc. series that are free? Don't > think so.
There are however free OSs which are just as good as the commercial ones.
> And, I don't have to wonder whether a commercial piece of > software is any good if it's been around for any time at all. > If it has, its only because people have been buying it.
Doesnt mean its any good tho.
>>> As a user, I _know_ I hate it - there's nobody to call up for >>> tech support most of the time, and the documentation so >>> far on some of the stuff I've _tried_ to use always sucks. >> I can't count the number of times I've called tech support on >> one finger. If it don't work, over the side. Next. > Can't necessarily deep-6 something that doesn't work, if it happens > to be the tool your organization is using to produce something.
Your problem. You could get real radical and work for an organisation wth a clue.
> Get a dud of an open source program, have a problem, > and you're up the creek unless someone there can fix it. > Shouldn't have to divert valuable production time to fix your tools, y'know?
Get the same problem with commercial stuff.
>>> There's a Unix-based UML drawing program that supposedly >>> creates diagrams from source code. Not on my computer it >>> doesn't. It crashes. Documentation? Some guy wrote something >>> about 4 revisions back, that doesn't reflect the state of the thing >>> now at all, but who ya' gonna complain to? There's no one that's >>> paid to give a d***, so that'd likely be futile anyway. >> Nobody should be a programmer. I used to think it took five >> years, but I was wrong - it takes ten years, and they won't >> leave the toolchain under you long enough for that to happen. > Too bad its such fun, satisfying work, eh?
You can say the same thing about all sorts of work.
> Oh, well, only the Indians and a few others can have that sort of fun any more.
Mindlessly silly. Plenty of non Indians still do it.
>>>> Also WRT to the WaPo - the jobs aren't listed there any more >>>> - they are online. And increasingly, we're dependent on networking >>>> tools and knowing good - emphasis *good* - recruiters. >>> Everything's on Dice, eh? >> Well.. used to be. Try Indeed now. It'll be different next week. > Ha, how 'bout that. Didn't know it was there. Still doesn't have any > SW Development jobs in Iraq or Afghanistan. Missed that one job > a couple years ago that was offered where I work. Make a pile of > mony in return for maybe getting shot at. Finally got a tech writing > job near Baghdad. Did get shot at. Did make a pile. Will retire > earlier than I could have otherwise... Maybe something I did > will save a (US, or even allied) soldier someday.... hoping... >>>> Now - the *military* will see significant drop in demand, as >>>> that whole thing slides off into the sunset. In the private sector, >>>> there's a different problem - employers getting much, much dumber. >>> I wouldn't bet on that. Soon's somebody starts getting complacent, >>> we'll get hit again, maybe lose more than 3,000 people to some WMD >>> thing like Anthrax, and then there'll be a new region of the world >>> that needs their a**'s kicked, and we'll be developing more >>> Tomahawk software to do new and wonderous things... >> Okay then.... >> Look... all the Visa and Mastercharge the Mujahadeen used to finance all that... expired. >> Sorry. > Doesn't matter. They'll find a way, 1000's of Americans will die,
Nope, you watch.
> our side will say in unison, "Told ya' so", and > then we'll be off with another exeditionary force...
Not a chance. There hasnt been anything like 9/11 since, and there wont be either, you watch.
Those clowns are concentrating on blowing each other up now.
Just like they did when they finally got the russians to go home.
>>>>>> And in effect, you're charging your employer rent on a security clearance :) >>>>> I work directly for the US Navy. Even if the programming >>>>> was all done someplace else, we'd still have to test it. >>>>> I can do that too... Not nearly as satisfying, tho. >>>> No, I understand. Programming is testing, ultimately. >>> Uh-huh... >> Yep. Funny you should say that... >>>>>>> Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that >>>>>>> lots of the rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to >>>>>>> accept, at crap wages. >>>>>> No, things are actually picking up out there. People in >>>>>> industries with good prospects for export are hiring. Defense >>>>>> spend my not last much longer, though.... >>>>> It can pick up a little, sputter a little, etc. and so forth, but >>>>> the cancer remains, and that cancer is the income tax. There is no >>>>> recovery, long-term, while the income tax bleeds our industries >>>>> dry. Without good paying jobs for all the people, which only >>>>> manufacturing can deliver, there won't be enough people with >>>>> enough money to tax to run the gov't. Therefore, the deficit >>>>> spending will continue until the Chinese, Japanese, and Europeans >>>>> wake up and see what a monumentally bad idea it is to loan us money. >>>> Yes. Three things, though: >>>> 1) The dollar cannot be the benchmark currency forever. But we >>>> don't have to outrun the bear, we just have to outrun Europe. And >>>> they're in worse shape than we are, in every dimension except >>>> those published by propaganda centers like the WHO. >>> Well, we could give it a try at being the benchmark currency >>> forever. No need to give it up willingly. >> What is the point? Foam-finger "we're #1" rot? That gains us nothing. > I'm not sure what it gains us, either, other than if it's referenced > to gold, I think that due to our dollar devaluation binge, oil will go > up faster in price. That would be a bad thing.
Nope, if it goes up enough, it makes the alternatives more viable.
>>>> 2) At some point, China will develop a consumer class, >>>> and we'll be able to trade, roughly, goods for goods. >>> Not if we're not producing anything. >> Well, I'm trying. me and a half dozen other guys. > We need to be producing something that is valuable andt that millions of people want.
Still doing that.
> Cars come to mind,
So do pharmaceuticals, houses, aircraft, movies, TV series, music, PC software, ebay, paypal etc etc etc.
> but we have to do it profitably.
You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist fellas ?
> The Fair Tax would make that possible,
Nope, it would completely cripple the sales of new cars and houses.
>>>> Right now is a solution to the >>>> problem the British ran against which led to the Boxer >>>> Rebellion. How this will play out remains to be seen - it's quite >>>> risky. But the cheapness of Chinese goods has made the quality of >>>> life during this time of flat wages much more tolerable. In the >>>> end, it's not really the number that matters, it's what that >>>> number will buy, and that is actually pretty good, once you get >>>> outside of housing. And housing is very sharply correcting as we >>>> speak... >>>> 3) The income tax is not optimal, but it's not that far off. And >>>> the problem is that "government load" in all directions is much >>>> lower here than it is in China, India, Europe or Japan. >>> Government load? >> See also Kirchoff. > Kirchoff made a law of electricity that I dimly remember from early > training. Oh, I remember how the
The problem with this whole exchange is your denying the obvious, that retail prices will fall when expense of the income tax is removed from American business. It is a law of business that competition sets the price - you may want to keep the old price and pocket that 22%, but you'll have a competitor that will pass along the savings, so you'll either have to lower your price in order to sell your widget, or you'll go out of business. That's just the way it works. If you keep clinging to your view, then we have nothing to talk about. You're just wrong on this one.
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 02:16:43 -0800 (PST), Rally2xs <rally...@att.net> wrote:
>I just mean that we're headed for a 3rd world economy - no industry, a >very, very wealthy class, and a very, very poor class, and nobody in >between.
Yep, there's a chasm that's only getting wider. We cut our throats when we off shored most of our manufacturing.
-- I love cooking with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Rally2xs wrote: > The problem with this whole exchange is your denying > the obvious, that retail prices will fall when expense of > the income tax is removed from American business.
And you are denying the even more obvious, that sales of new cars and houses would be very fundamentally crippled by your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax of 50%, and even the 25% lie that wouldnt be revenue neutral.
When those sales are ALREADY crippled by the GFC that would very comprehensively fuck the economy.
> It is a law of business that competition sets the price
It is in fact MUCH more complicated than mindlessly superficial claim.
Try telling that to Microsoft whose main competitor hands out their main competitive product quite literally for FREE. Dont be TOO surprised when Gates just laughs in your stupid pig ignorant face.
> - you may want to keep the old price and pocket that 22%, > but you'll have a competitor that will pass along the savings, > so you'll either have to lower your price in order to sell your > widget, or you'll go out of business.
Even someone as stupid as you should have noticed that the american car manufacturers are ALREADY going out of business WITHOUT your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax slug of 22% and would do that in spaded if the US was actually stupid enough to go for your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax, so not only wouldnt manufacturing return to the US, it would see a complete decimation of the car manufacturing industry.
House building in spades, and that is one area where there is still a hell of a lot of work in the US, essentially because its not that practical to move finished houses and bridges and roads etc etc etc from china currently.
> That's just the way it works.
Only in your pathetic little pig ignorant fantasyland.
> If you keep clinging to your view, then we have nothing to talk about.
We can keep rubbing your stupid pig ignorant nose in the fact that your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax cant work and why no modern country in the entire world has actually been stupid enough to try it.
> You're just wrong on this one.
Nope, you fools are.
Fortunately there will never be enough of you fools to matter, so it wont ever happen.
> Rally2xs <rally...@att.net> wrote >> I just mean that we're headed for a 3rd world economy - no industry, a very, >> very wealthy class, and a very, very poor class, and nobody in between. > Yep, there's a chasm that's only getting wider.
It isnt actually. The only real 'poor' anymore are the 'homeless' and most of them are quite literally insane, just not in the locked wards we used in the past.
> We cut our throats when we off shored most of our manufacturing.
That was inevitable once china decided that communism wasnt going to fly.
Nothing anyone can do about the massive difference in labor costs.
And the real poor benefit from that very dramatically with the price of low cost consumer goods being MUCH cheaper as a result too.
There will always be a massive middle class in every modern first and second world country.
Manufacturing is only a very minor employer in any modern first world country, even one like Japan.
We saw the same thing with agriculture before that with previously something like 90% employed in agriculture in some way, now down to less than 5% and we handled that fine.
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