On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 11:33 AM, Bob Crowley <bobcrow...@acenet.net.au>wrote: 

The only place this figure of 860,000 Jews is given is by the Catholic 
Church and your statement that they did this during the Holocaust is not 
true. 

The Catholic Church was repeatedly asked for assistance formally and 
repeatedly refused to assist the Jews. 

There were, however, priests and nuns, who joined the French Underground, as 
Individuals, unknown to the Catholic Church at the time, who rejected the 
position of the Church. 

Under the auspices of the French Underground they provided assistance to 
many Jews and saved many lives as did other Individual Christians. 

"Throughout the 
Holocaust<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/holo.html>, 
Pius XII was consistently besieged with pleas for help on behalf of the 
Jews. 

In the spring of 
1940<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Chronology_1940...>, 
the Chief Rabbi of Palestine, Isaac 
Herzog<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/IHerzog.html>, 
asked the papal Secretary of State, Cardinal Luigi Maglione to intercede to 
keep Jews in Spain<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Spain.html> 
from 
being deported to 
Germany<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Germanytoc.html>. 
He later made a similar request for Jews in 
Lithuania<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/lithtoc.html>. 
The papacy did nothing.(5)<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html#N_5_> 

Within the Pope's own church, Cardinal Theodor Innitzer of 
Vienna<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Vienna.html> 
told 
Pius XII about Jewish deportations in 1941. In 1942, the Slovakian charge 
d'affaires, a position under the supervision of the Pope, reported to 
Rome<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Rome.html> 
 that Slovakian 
Jews<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/slovakiatoc.html> 
were 
being systematically deported and sent to death 
camps<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/ccpoltoc.html> 
.(6)<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html#N_6_> 

In October 1941<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Chronology_1941...>, 
the Assistant Chief of the U.S. delegation to the Vatican, Harold Tittman, 
asked the Pope to condemn the atrocities. The response came that the Holy 
See wanted to remain "neutral," and that condemning the atrocities would 
have a negative influence on Catholics in German-held 
lands.(7)<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html#N_7_> 

In late August 1942<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Chronology_1942...>, 
after more than 200,000 Ukrainian Jews had been killed, Ukrainian 
Metropolitan Andrej Septyckyj wrote a long letter to the Pope, referring to 
the German government as a regime of terror and corruption, more diabolical 
than that of the Bolsheviks. The Pope replied by quoting verses from Psalms 
and advising Septyckyj to "bear adversity with serene 
patience."(8)<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html#N_8_> 

On September 18, 1942, Monsignor Giovanni Battista Montini, the future Pope 
Paul VI, wrote, "The massacres of the Jews reach frightening proportions and 
forms."(9)<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html#N_9_> 
Yet, 
that same month when Myron Taylor, U.S. representative to the Vatican, 
warned the Pope that his silence was endangering his moral prestige, the 
Secretary of State responded on the Pope's behalf that it was impossible to 
verify rumors about crimes committed against the 
Jews.(10)<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html#N...> 

Wladislaw Raczkiewicz, president of the Polish government-in-exile, appealed 
to the Pope in January 
1943<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Chronology_1943...> 
to 
publicly denounce Nazi violence. Bishop Preysing of Berlin did the same, at 
least twice. Pius XII 
refused.(11)"<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html#N...> 
Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html 

In addition, the Catholic Church played a role in assisting the some of the 
leading Nazi War Criminals to escape from Germany after the war so that they 
could escape Prosecution by the International Courts. 

"The Vatican used every means at their disposal to assist war criminals, 
including dressing SS officers in priests clothing and laundering hundreds 
of millions of gold bullion through Vatican banking channels. Granted that 
humanitarianism is one of the Church's missions to fulfill on this earth, 
but does this mission of brotherly love include harboring escaped murderers 
and war criminals? Granted that love of ones neighbor is one of the bedrock 
principles of the Church, but does that include covering up the sins of 
former members of the SS who willing sinned against their fellow human 
beings? These questions I will leave to readers to decide for themselves." 

"Years later it became public knowledge that war criminals like Klaus 
Barbie, Adolf Eichmann, Heinrich Mueller, Josef Bluemle, Franz Stangl and a 
whole list of other war criminals escaped war torn Europe via the Catholic 
Church. Most of these men escaped through the work of one man, a Roman 
Catholic Bishop named Alois Hudal, Rector of the Pontificio Santa Maria 
dell' Anima. "During the war Hudal served as Commissioner or the Episcopate 
for German speaking Catholics in Italy, as well as Father Confessor to 
Rome's German community."  Hudal harbored anti-Semitic feelings and his pro 
Nazi stance was well known throughout the Catholic community. During 
Hitler's rule, Bishop Hudal often spoke about the unity between the Catholic 
Church and the Nazi government. " 

Source: 
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~confido/catholic.html 

My response two to Bob with references:

Trance Gemini

View profile

(1 user)  More options Sep 20, 12:03 pm

On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 11:33 AM, Bob Crowley <bobcrow...@acenet.net.au>wrote: 

- Show quoted text -

The atheists were the first group to be tossed in jail if they were German 
and the prison camps if they were Jewish. 

Even before the Jews. 

This was done to clear the way of opposition in 1933 so the Hitler could get 
the 2/3 majority he needed to pass the Enabling Act, which was the act which 
gave Hitler absolute power and paved the way for the Holocaust. 

After the communists and social democrats who had been actively organizing 
against Hitler most of whom were atheist with some theists, Hitler appears 
to have made a deal with the Zentrum Party (Catholic Party) that they would 
support the Enabling Act, and he would sign the Kondordat. Hitler obtained 
the 2/3 majority required when the Zentrum Party voted with him. 

"The Social Democrats fiercely opposed the Enabling act.  Hitler needed a 
2/3 majority, so the balance lay with Zentrum, the Catholic Center Party. 
Zentrum leader Monsignor Ludwig Kaas, a close friend and advisor to Eugenio 
Pacelli, the future Pope Pius XII, addressed the Reichstag. Far from 
attacking the Enabling act, or disputing Hitler's claim that Nazism was 
based on Christianity, Kaas called for a 'yes' vote. The Zentrum faction did 
vote 'yes,' and the act became law. Three and a half months later, on 6 
July, the Zentrum dissolved itself.  Two weeks later, the Vatican and the 
Nazi government signed the Concordat, declaring a virtual alliance between 
the Catholic Church and the Nazi state. It required that Catholic bishops 
swear allegiance to the Nazi government:" 

Source: http://emperor.vwh.net/vatican/cpix.htm 

Thanks to the Zentrum Party, the Catholic Party, Hitler enacted the Enabling 
Act, took absolute power in Germany and we know the rest of the story. 

*Quotes from Hitler on Secularism and Atheism:* 

*Secular Schools Cannot Be Tolerated.* 
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no 
religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious 
foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and 
religion must be derived from faith ...we need believing people." 
-- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, speech made during negotiations leading to 
the Nazi-Vatican Concordant 

*We Will Fight the Atheist Movement.* 
" We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have 
therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not 
merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out." 
-- Adolf Hitler, Speech in Berlin, October 24, 1933 

*Atheist Hall Converted. 
*"In Freethinkers Hall, which before the Nazi resurgence was the national 
headquarters of the German Freethinkers League, the Berlin Protestant church 
authorities have opened a bureau for advice to the public in church matters. 
Its chief object is to win back former churchgoers and assist those who have 
not previously belonged to any religious congregation in obtaining church 
membership. The German Freethinkers League, which was swept away by the 
national revolution, was the largest of such organizations in Germany. It 
had about 500,000 members..." 
--The New York Times, May 14, 1933, page 2, on Hitler's outlawing atheistic 
and freethinking groups in the Spring of 1933, after the Enabling Act 
authorizing Hitler to rule by decree. 

*Campaign Against "Godless Movement".* 
"A campaign against the 'godless movement' and an appeal for Catholic 
support were launched by Chancellor Adolf Hitler's forces." 
-- Associated Press story, February 23, 1933, quoted from Positive Atheism 

http://knol.google.com/k/kitty-hundal/christianity-and-german-fascism... 

BlueSci's response to Dillan with references:

BlueSci

View profile

(2 users)  More options Sep 16, 8:11 pm

On Sep 15, 9:27 am, dillan <dferna...@gmail.com> wrote: 

> The fact is, atheist contributed the least to prevent hitler. 

Likely because he outlawed and shut down atheist groups like The 
German Freethinkers League. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Freethinkers_League 
"The League was closed down, however, in the Spring of 1933 when 
Hitler outlawed all atheistic and freethinking groups in Germany. 
'Freethinkers Hall', the national headquarters of the League, was then 
converted to a bureau advising to the public in church matters." 

But let's not forget those "athiest" communists like the Communist 
Party of Germany--KPD and the Social Democratic Party of Germany--SPD 
(which was Marxist at that time). 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Resistance#Communist_resistance 
The Gestapo lumped 3 communist resistance groups under the name 'Red 
Orchestra' and had a special task force to combat them. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Orchestra_(spy) 

> The 
> acadamic community in germany (usually where atheists are congregated) 
> did nothing. Often times they even went along with hitlers demands. 

Probably because Hitler purged the universities of Jews and 
dissenters. 

From http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/triumph/tr-bookburn.htm 
"The entire teaching profession throughout Germany, from elementary 
schools to university level, had been purged of Jewish instructors and 
anyone deemed politically suspect, regardless of their proven teaching 
abilities or achievements, including 20 past (and future) Nobel Prize 
winners. About ten percent of Germany's university teaching force was 
sacked in 1933-34, with devastating results for disciplines such as 
quantum physics and mathematics where Jews had been prominent." 

> We all know scientists helped hitler build rockets, experiment on 
> jews, etc. (a scientist is more likely an atheist) 

Oh, you mean like this one: 

"An outlook through this peephole [that manned space flight had 
opened] at the vast mysteries of the universe should only confirm our 
belief in the certainty of its Creator. I find it as difficult to 
understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a 
superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to 
comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science." 
---Wernher Von Braun 

> No single acadamic institution ever denounced hitler's tactics. 

Not too surprising considering Hitler had gotten rid of most academics 
that would likely have opposed him and any left that might have were 
intimidated. 

"In the college classroom, professors gave lectures amid the nagging 
fear they might be denounced by one of their students for any reason 
and possibly wind up in a concentration camp. Politically ambitious 
teachers sometimes kept secret dossiers on the utterances and 
activities of their fellow educators which could be turned over to the 
Gestapo to further their own careers."  http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/triumph/tr-bookburn.htm 

But it's not true that there was no opposition from universities. 

"Eventually, small groups of like-minded students and professors still 
opposed to Nazism found each other. They sometimes held clandestine 
off-campus discussions featuring a free exchange of ideas. One such 
group based at the University of Munich became known as the White Rose 
and boldly distributed leaflets demanding that Hitler "return to us 
the personal freedom which is the most valuable possession of each 
German, and of which he has cheated us in the lowest possible manner." 
Two members of the group, Hans and Sophie Scholl, were arrested by the 
Gestapo for this and executed." http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/triumph/tr-bookburn.htm 
See also:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose 

> And you have he audacity to blame the church (falsely) for not 
> speaking out? 
> ha! 

I have the audacity to back up my claims with references.  How about 
you?