Religious believers, most especially those that pray, only see what they want to see, and this is also the case with magic. When confronted with an impasse, man has a choice between overcoming it by his own ingenuity, or withdrawing into himself and overcoming it in fantasy: he can turn outwards or inwards, and inwards is the method of both magic and religious belief, or, to use the psychological term, 'autisme'. Magicians believe that by words, or spells, they can alter the world, as do those who pray and so they belong to that same category of people who place an over-emphasis on thought: children, mystics, criminals, dreamers, and madmen. All attempt to deal with reality by the same psychological mechanism.
This over-emphasis on thought, the conviction that the hard wall of reality can be broken through in the mind, or indeed is not there at all, was what Freud claimed to have found in his neurotic patients, and called omnipotence of thought (Allmacht der Gedanken). The magic rites and spells of primitive man correspond psychologically to the obsessional actions and protective formulas of neurotics; so the neurotic is like the savage in that he 'believes he can change the outer world by a mere thought of his' (Freud: Totem and Taboo).
Here again we have put before us a parallelism between ontogenetic and phylogenetic development: the individual passes through three libidinous phases, narcissism, object finding, which is characterized by dependence on the parents, and the state of maturity in which the individual accepts reality and adapts himself to it; and these phases correspond psychologically to the three stages in the intellectual development of man, the animistic (by which Freud seems to have meant what others would have called the magical), the religious, and the scientific.
In the narcissistic phase, corresponding to magic, the child, unable to satisfy its desires through motor activity, compensates by overcoming its difficulties in imagination, substituting thought for action; he is then under analogous psychic conditions to the magician; and the neurotic is like the magician too, in that they both over-estimate the power of thought, as do, also, those who pray. In other words, it is tension, an acute sense of frustration, which generates magical ritual, the function of which is to relieve the tension. So prayer and magic both are little more than wish-fulfillment by which man attempts to experience gratification through motor hallucination. All of religious belief is likewise an illusion. It arises under the influence of guilt and is maintained by reminders of guilt.
{some sections from an email from James Dern} -- "Atheism is the natural condition of the Universe into which we are all born and where we innocently live unless cerebrally raped by indoctrination into some 'faith' by intellectually-challenged persuaders who prey mostly on children. People’s gods exist only as fictions inside their heads." [Dr. Terence Meaden]
> Religious believers, most especially those that pray, only see what
> they want to see, and this is also the case with magic. When
> confronted with an impasse, man has a choice between overcoming it by
> his own ingenuity, or withdrawing into himself and overcoming it in
> fantasy: he can turn outwards or inwards, and inwards is the method of
> both magic and religious belief, or, to use the psychological term,
> 'autisme'. Magicians believe that by words, or spells, they can alter
> the world, as do those who pray and so they belong to that same
> category of people who place an over-emphasis on thought: children,
> mystics, criminals, dreamers, and madmen. All attempt to deal with
> reality by the same psychological mechanism.
> This over-emphasis on thought, the conviction that the hard wall of
> reality can be broken through in the mind, or indeed is not there at
> all, was what Freud claimed to have found in his neurotic patients,
> and called omnipotence of thought (Allmacht der Gedanken). The magic
> rites and spells of primitive man correspond psychologically to the
> obsessional actions and protective formulas of neurotics; so the
> neurotic is like the savage in that he 'believes he can change the
> outer world by a mere thought of his' (Freud: Totem and Taboo).
> Here again we have put before us a parallelism between ontogenetic and
> phylogenetic development: the individual passes through three
> libidinous phases, narcissism, object finding, which is characterized
> by dependence on the parents, and the state of maturity in which the
> individual accepts reality and adapts himself to it; and these phases
> correspond psychologically to the three stages in the intellectual
> development of man, the animistic (by which Freud seems to have meant
> what others would have called the magical), the religious, and the
> scientific.
What is the difference between the animistic and religious stages
here? They both seem magical; do you know how Freud distinguished
them?
> In the narcissistic phase, corresponding to magic, the child, unable
> to satisfy its desires through motor activity, compensates by
> overcoming its difficulties in imagination, substituting thought for
> action; he is then under analogous psychic conditions to the magician;
> and the neurotic is like the magician too, in that they both
> over-estimate the power of thought, as do, also, those who pray. In
> other words, it is tension, an acute sense of frustration, which
> generates magical ritual, the function of which is to relieve the
> tension. So prayer and magic both are little more than
> wish-fulfillment by which man attempts to experience gratification
> through motor hallucination. All of religious belief is likewise an
> illusion. It arises under the influence of guilt and is maintained by
> reminders of guilt.
> {some sections from an email from James Dern}
> --
> "Atheism is the natural condition of the Universe into which we are
> all born and where we innocently live unless cerebrally raped by
> indoctrination into some 'faith' by intellectually-challenged
> persuaders who prey mostly on children. People’s gods exist only
> as fictions inside their heads."
> [Dr. Terence Meaden]
> What is the difference between the animistic and religious stages > here? They both seem magical; do you know how Freud distinguished > them?
I am not an expert on Freud but I believe that he got his concept of animism from anthropologists such as Herbert Spencer and Wilhelm Wundt, who used it to refer to the tendency of attributing a 'soul' to things and thus ascribing an intentionality to phenomena that would otherwise be understood in mechanistic causal terms.
He saw animism as a projection of our own emotions and emotional desires onto inanimate objects. In this way the individual sees his internal cognitive processes as being external to himself.
He viewed religion as an actual external phenomena that was absorbed by the experiencer rather than projected.
That is off the top of my head. I'll poke around in my stuff here and see if perhaps his "Totem and Taboo" expands on this.
-- "Atheism is the natural condition of the Universe into which we are all born and where we innocently live unless cerebrally raped by indoctrination into some 'faith' by intellectually-challenged persuaders who prey mostly on children. People’s gods exist only as fictions inside their heads." [Dr. Terence Meaden]
> > What is the difference between the animistic and religious stages
> > here? They both seem magical; do you know how Freud distinguished
> > them?
> I am not an expert on Freud but I believe that he got his concept of
> animism from anthropologists such as Herbert Spencer and Wilhelm
> Wundt, who used it to refer to the tendency of attributing a 'soul' to
> things and thus ascribing an intentionality to phenomena that would
> otherwise be understood in mechanistic causal terms.
> He saw animism as a projection of our own emotions and emotional
> desires onto inanimate objects. In this way the individual sees his
> internal cognitive processes as being external to himself.
> He viewed religion as an actual external phenomena that was absorbed
> by the experiencer rather than projected.
> That is off the top of my head. I'll poke around in my stuff here and
> see if perhaps his "Totem and Taboo" expands on this.
That would be great, if you don't mind. I love Freud, this is
interesting. Maybe I'll poke around too on Wikipedia...
> --
> "Atheism is the natural condition of the Universe into which we are
> all born and where we innocently live unless cerebrally raped by
> indoctrination into some 'faith' by intellectually-challenged
> persuaders who prey mostly on children. People’s gods exist only
> as fictions inside their heads."
> [Dr. Terence Meaden]
On Oct 29, 9:34 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 29, 3:12 pm, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > [Neil Kelsey]
> > > What is the difference between the animistic and religious stages
> > > here? They both seem magical; do you know how Freud distinguished
> > > them?
> > I am not an expert on Freud but I believe that he got his concept of
> > animism from anthropologists such as Herbert Spencer and Wilhelm
> > Wundt, who used it to refer to the tendency of attributing a 'soul' to
It is the weak-willed, those lacking in strength of character and the
dilettantes of the fashion world who are attracted to the lezbean and
homer life-styles. The sick and dying are weak and have little
resistance; they are easily influenced and might, just might, take on
this viral trend whilst delirious.
They then become abominations unto The Lord and the Gates of Hell
crack open to receive their damned souls.
I think you will have to agree that this will become a reality with
Obama's Healthcare.
__________________
Amen
> > things and thus ascribing an intentionality to phenomena that would
> > otherwise be understood in mechanistic causal terms.
> > He saw animism as a projection of our own emotions and emotional
> > desires onto inanimate objects. In this way the individual sees his
> > internal cognitive processes as being external to himself.
> > He viewed religion as an actual external phenomena that was absorbed
> > by the experiencer rather than projected.
> > That is off the top of my head. I'll poke around in my stuff here and
> > see if perhaps his "Totem and Taboo" expands on this.
> That would be great, if you don't mind. I love Freud, this is
> interesting. Maybe I'll poke around too on Wikipedia...
> > --
> > "Atheism is the natural condition of the Universe into which we are
> > all born and where we innocently live unless cerebrally raped by
> > indoctrination into some 'faith' by intellectually-challenged
> > persuaders who prey mostly on children. People’s gods exist only
> > as fictions inside their heads."
> > [Dr. Terence Meaden]
> It is the weak-willed, those lacking in strength of character and the > dilettantes of the fashion world who are attracted to the lezbean and > homer life-styles. The sick and dying are weak and have little > resistance; they are easily influenced and might, just might, take on > this viral trend whilst delirious. > They then become abominations unto The Lord and the Gates of Hell > crack open to receive their damned souls. > I think you will have to agree that this will become a reality with > Obama's Healthcare. > __________________ > Amen
You really need to take your Quaaludes, mate.
-- "Atheism is the natural condition of the Universe into which we are all born and where we innocently live unless cerebrally raped by indoctrination into some 'faith' by intellectually-challenged persuaders who prey mostly on children. People’s gods exist only as fictions inside their heads." [Dr. Terence Meaden]
On Oct 29, 3:25 pm, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Religious believers, most especially those that pray, only see what
> they want to see, and this is also the case with magic.
Perhaps the characterization is an oversimplification. :)
> When
> confronted with an impasse, man has a choice between overcoming it by
> his own ingenuity, or withdrawing into himself and overcoming it in
> fantasy: he can turn outwards or inwards, and inwards is the method of
> both magic and religious belief, or, to use the psychological term,
> 'autisme'. Magicians believe that by words, or spells, they can alter
> the world, as do those who pray and so they belong to that same
> category of people who place an over-emphasis on thought: children,
> mystics, criminals, dreamers, and madmen. All attempt to deal with
> reality by the same psychological mechanism.
Or rather, the simple fact:
Humankind is not the measure of all things.
> So prayer and magic both are little more than
> wish-fulfillment by which man attempts to experience gratification
> through motor hallucination.
Or prayer represents an investment of time in a personal relationship
with a sovereign God who has provided commands for humankind to
follow. As the psalmist says:
"How can a young man keep his way pure?
By keeping it according to Your word.
With all my heart I have sought You;
Do not let me wander from Your commandments.
Your word I have treasured in my heart,
That I may not sin against You."
> and this is also the case with magic. When
> confronted with an impasse, man has a choice between overcoming it by
> his own ingenuity, or withdrawing into himself and overcoming it in
> fantasy: he can turn outwards or inwards, and inwards is the method of
> both magic and religious belief, or, to use the psychological term,
> 'autisme'. Magicians believe that by words, or spells, they can alter
> the world, as do those who pray and so they belong to that same
> category of people who place an over-emphasis on thought: children,
> mystics, criminals, dreamers, and madmen. All attempt to deal with
> reality by the same psychological mechanism.
> This over-emphasis on thought, the conviction that the hard wall of
> reality can be broken through in the mind, or indeed is not there at
> all, was what Freud claimed to have found in his neurotic patients,
> and called omnipotence of thought (Allmacht der Gedanken). The magic
> rites and spells of primitive man correspond psychologically to the
> obsessional actions and protective formulas of neurotics; so the
> neurotic is like the savage in that he 'believes he can change the
> outer world by a mere thought of his' (Freud: Totem and Taboo).
> Here again we have put before us a parallelism between ontogenetic and
> phylogenetic development: the individual passes through three
> libidinous phases, narcissism, object finding, which is characterized
> by dependence on the parents, and the state of maturity in which the
> individual accepts reality and adapts himself to it; and these phases
> correspond psychologically to the three stages in the intellectual
> development of man, the animistic (by which Freud seems to have meant
> what others would have called the magical), the religious, and the
> scientific.
> In the narcissistic phase, corresponding to magic, the child, unable
> to satisfy its desires through motor activity, compensates by
> overcoming its difficulties in imagination, substituting thought for
> action; he is then under analogous psychic conditions to the magician;
> and the neurotic is like the magician too, in that they both
> over-estimate the power of thought, as do, also, those who pray. In
> other words, it is tension, an acute sense of frustration, which
> generates magical ritual, the function of which is to relieve the
> tension. So prayer and magic both are little more than
> wish-fulfillment by which man attempts to experience gratification
> through motor hallucination. All of religious belief is likewise an
> illusion. It arises under the influence of guilt and is maintained by
> reminders of guilt.
> {some sections from an email from James Dern}
> --
> "Atheism is the natural condition of the Universe into which we are
> all born and where we innocently live unless cerebrally raped by
> indoctrination into some 'faith' by intellectually-challenged
> persuaders who prey mostly on children. People’s gods exist only
> as fictions inside their heads."
> [Dr. Terence Meaden]
> On Oct 29, 3:25 pm, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Religious believers, most especially those that pray, only see what
>> they want to see,
> False.
> Proof: we see atheists.
> The rest of your post is based on this demonstrated falsehood, so it
> all fails.
Keep telling yourself that. Your faith should be strong enough to overcome any obstacle thrown in your path.
>> and this is also the case with magic. When
>> confronted with an impasse, man has a choice between overcoming it by
>> his own ingenuity, or withdrawing into himself and overcoming it in
>> fantasy: he can turn outwards or inwards, and inwards is the method of
>> both magic and religious belief, or, to use the psychological term,
>> 'autisme'. Magicians believe that by words, or spells, they can alter
>> the world, as do those who pray and so they belong to that same
>> category of people who place an over-emphasis on thought: children,
>> mystics, criminals, dreamers, and madmen. All attempt to deal with
>> reality by the same psychological mechanism.
>> This over-emphasis on thought, the conviction that the hard wall of
>> reality can be broken through in the mind, or indeed is not there at
>> all, was what Freud claimed to have found in his neurotic patients,
>> and called omnipotence of thought (Allmacht der Gedanken). The magic
>> rites and spells of primitive man correspond psychologically to the
>> obsessional actions and protective formulas of neurotics; so the
>> neurotic is like the savage in that he 'believes he can change the
>> outer world by a mere thought of his' (Freud: Totem and Taboo).
>> Here again we have put before us a parallelism between ontogenetic and
>> phylogenetic development: the individual passes through three
>> libidinous phases, narcissism, object finding, which is characterized
>> by dependence on the parents, and the state of maturity in which the
>> individual accepts reality and adapts himself to it; and these phases
>> correspond psychologically to the three stages in the intellectual
>> development of man, the animistic (by which Freud seems to have meant
>> what others would have called the magical), the religious, and the
>> scientific.
>> In the narcissistic phase, corresponding to magic, the child, unable
>> to satisfy its desires through motor activity, compensates by
>> overcoming its difficulties in imagination, substituting thought for
>> action; he is then under analogous psychic conditions to the magician;
>> and the neurotic is like the magician too, in that they both
>> over-estimate the power of thought, as do, also, those who pray. In
>> other words, it is tension, an acute sense of frustration, which
>> generates magical ritual, the function of which is to relieve the
>> tension. So prayer and magic both are little more than
>> wish-fulfillment by which man attempts to experience gratification
>> through motor hallucination. All of religious belief is likewise an
>> illusion. It arises under the influence of guilt and is maintained by
>> reminders of guilt.
>> {some sections from an email from James Dern}
>> --
>> "Atheism is the natural condition of the Universe into which we are
>> all born and where we innocently live unless cerebrally raped by
>> indoctrination into some 'faith' by intellectually-challenged
>> persuaders who prey mostly on children. People?s gods exist only
>> as fictions inside their heads."
>> [Dr. Terence Meaden]
>> Virtual Gods:http://users3.jabry.com/sjewins/library/__philorelig.htm > --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> To post to this group, send email to
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> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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-- "However many holy words you read, however many you speak,
what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them?"
[Buddha]
On Nov 3, 6:30 pm, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [JFG]
> > On Oct 29, 3:25 pm, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Religious believers, most especially those that pray, only see what
> >> they want to see,
> > False.
> > Proof: we see atheists.
> > The rest of your post is based on this demonstrated falsehood, so it
> > all fails.
> Keep telling yourself that. Your faith should be strong enough to overcome any obstacle thrown in your path.
Are you implying you have something here that does not fail for the
reason stated? What might that be, do you think?
> >> and this is also the case with magic. When
> >> confronted with an impasse, man has a choice between overcoming it by
> >> his own ingenuity, or withdrawing into himself and overcoming it in
> >> fantasy: he can turn outwards or inwards, and inwards is the method of
> >> both magic and religious belief, or, to use the psychological term,
> >> 'autisme'. Magicians believe that by words, or spells, they can alter
> >> the world, as do those who pray and so they belong to that same
> >> category of people who place an over-emphasis on thought: children,
> >> mystics, criminals, dreamers, and madmen. All attempt to deal with
> >> reality by the same psychological mechanism.
> >> This over-emphasis on thought, the conviction that the hard wall of
> >> reality can be broken through in the mind, or indeed is not there at
> >> all, was what Freud claimed to have found in his neurotic patients,
> >> and called omnipotence of thought (Allmacht der Gedanken). The magic
> >> rites and spells of primitive man correspond psychologically to the
> >> obsessional actions and protective formulas of neurotics; so the
> >> neurotic is like the savage in that he 'believes he can change the
> >> outer world by a mere thought of his' (Freud: Totem and Taboo).
> >> Here again we have put before us a parallelism between ontogenetic and
> >> phylogenetic development: the individual passes through three
> >> libidinous phases, narcissism, object finding, which is characterized
> >> by dependence on the parents, and the state of maturity in which the
> >> individual accepts reality and adapts himself to it; and these phases
> >> correspond psychologically to the three stages in the intellectual
> >> development of man, the animistic (by which Freud seems to have meant
> >> what others would have called the magical), the religious, and the
> >> scientific.
> >> In the narcissistic phase, corresponding to magic, the child, unable
> >> to satisfy its desires through motor activity, compensates by
> >> overcoming its difficulties in imagination, substituting thought for
> >> action; he is then under analogous psychic conditions to the magician;
> >> and the neurotic is like the magician too, in that they both
> >> over-estimate the power of thought, as do, also, those who pray. In
> >> other words, it is tension, an acute sense of frustration, which
> >> generates magical ritual, the function of which is to relieve the
> >> tension. So prayer and magic both are little more than
> >> wish-fulfillment by which man attempts to experience gratification
> >> through motor hallucination. All of religious belief is likewise an
> >> illusion. It arises under the influence of guilt and is maintained by
> >> reminders of guilt.
> >> {some sections from an email from James Dern}
> >> --
> >> "Atheism is the natural condition of the Universe into which we are
> >> all born and where we innocently live unless cerebrally raped by
> >> indoctrination into some 'faith' by intellectually-challenged
> >> persuaders who prey mostly on children. People?s gods exist only
> >> as fictions inside their heads."
> >> [Dr. Terence Meaden]
> >> Virtual Gods:http://users3.jabry.com/sjewins/library/__philorelig.htm > > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-christianity+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
> --
> "However many holy words you read, however many you speak,
> what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them?"
> [Buddha]
On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 1:53 AM, JFG <thelemiccatho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 3, 6:30 pm, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > [JFG]
> > > On Oct 29, 3:25 pm, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Religious believers, most especially those that pray, only see what
> > >> they want to see,
> > > False.
> > > Proof: we see atheists.
> > > The rest of your post is based on this demonstrated falsehood, so it
> > > all fails.
> > Keep telling yourself that. Your faith should be strong enough to
> overcome any obstacle thrown in your path.
> Are you implying you have something here that does not fail for the
> reason stated? What might that be, do you think?
Thea
I would be interested in seeing your reply - please?
> > >> and this is also the case with magic. When
> > >> confronted with an impasse, man has a choice between overcoming it by
> > >> his own ingenuity, or withdrawing into himself and overcoming it in
> > >> fantasy: he can turn outwards or inwards, and inwards is the method of
> > >> both magic and religious belief, or, to use the psychological term,
> > >> 'autisme'. Magicians believe that by words, or spells, they can alter
> > >> the world, as do those who pray and so they belong to that same
> > >> category of people who place an over-emphasis on thought: children,
> > >> mystics, criminals, dreamers, and madmen. All attempt to deal with
> > >> reality by the same psychological mechanism.
> > >> This over-emphasis on thought, the conviction that the hard wall of
> > >> reality can be broken through in the mind, or indeed is not there at
> > >> all, was what Freud claimed to have found in his neurotic patients,
> > >> and called omnipotence of thought (Allmacht der Gedanken). The magic
> > >> rites and spells of primitive man correspond psychologically to the
> > >> obsessional actions and protective formulas of neurotics; so the
> > >> neurotic is like the savage in that he 'believes he can change the
> > >> outer world by a mere thought of his' (Freud: Totem and Taboo).
> > >> Here again we have put before us a parallelism between ontogenetic and
> > >> phylogenetic development: the individual passes through three
> > >> libidinous phases, narcissism, object finding, which is characterized
> > >> by dependence on the parents, and the state of maturity in which the
> > >> individual accepts reality and adapts himself to it; and these phases
> > >> correspond psychologically to the three stages in the intellectual
> > >> development of man, the animistic (by which Freud seems to have meant
> > >> what others would have called the magical), the religious, and the
> > >> scientific.
> > >> In the narcissistic phase, corresponding to magic, the child, unable
> > >> to satisfy its desires through motor activity, compensates by
> > >> overcoming its difficulties in imagination, substituting thought for
> > >> action; he is then under analogous psychic conditions to the magician;
> > >> and the neurotic is like the magician too, in that they both
> > >> over-estimate the power of thought, as do, also, those who pray. In
> > >> other words, it is tension, an acute sense of frustration, which
> > >> generates magical ritual, the function of which is to relieve the
> > >> tension. So prayer and magic both are little more than
> > >> wish-fulfillment by which man attempts to experience gratification
> > >> through motor hallucination. All of religious belief is likewise an
> > >> illusion. It arises under the influence of guilt and is maintained by
> > >> reminders of guilt.
> > >> {some sections from an email from James Dern}
> > >> --
> > >> "Atheism is the natural condition of the Universe into which we are
> > >> all born and where we innocently live unless cerebrally raped by
> > >> indoctrination into some 'faith' by intellectually-challenged
> > >> persuaders who prey mostly on children. People?s gods exist only
> > >> as fictions inside their heads."
> > >> [Dr. Terence Meaden]
> > >> Virtual Gods:http://users3.jabry.com/sjewins/library/__philorelig.htm > > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > > Groups "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > > To post to this group, send email to
> > > atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > > atheism-vs-christianity+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit y%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
> .
> > > For more options, visit this group at
> > >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
> > --
> > "However many holy words you read, however many you speak,
> > what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them?"
> > [Buddha]
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> To post to this group, send email to
> atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> atheism-vs-christianity+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit y%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
> .
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
On Nov 3, 6:10 pm, JFG <thelemiccatho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Religious believers, most especially those that pray, only see what
> > they want to see,
> False.
> Proof: we see atheists.
Hum, interestingly revealing...
So, tell us, why is it that you would not want to see atheists?
The simple believeth every word.
Pr. 14:15
_______________________________________________
I find that people seem to think religion brings morals and
appreciation of nature. I actually think it detracts from both.
-- Linus Torvalds
> The simple believeth every word.
> Pr. 14:15
> _______________________________________________
> I find that people seem to think religion brings morals and
> appreciation of nature. I actually think it detracts from both.
> -- Linus Torvalds
> On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 1:53 AM, JFG <thelemiccatho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 3, 6:30 pm, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > [JFG]
> > > > On Oct 29, 3:25 pm, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> Religious believers, most especially those that pray, only see what
> > > >> they want to see,
> > > > False.
> > > > Proof: we see atheists.
> > > > The rest of your post is based on this demonstrated falsehood, so it
> > > > all fails.
> > > Keep telling yourself that. Your faith should be strong enough to
> > overcome any obstacle thrown in your path.
> > Are you implying you have something here that does not fail for the
> > reason stated? What might that be, do you think?
> Thea
> I would be interested in seeing your reply - please?
> > > >> and this is also the case with magic. When
> > > >> confronted with an impasse, man has a choice between overcoming it by
> > > >> his own ingenuity, or withdrawing into himself and overcoming it in
> > > >> fantasy: he can turn outwards or inwards, and inwards is the method of
> > > >> both magic and religious belief, or, to use the psychological term,
> > > >> 'autisme'. Magicians believe that by words, or spells, they can alter
> > > >> the world, as do those who pray and so they belong to that same
> > > >> category of people who place an over-emphasis on thought: children,
> > > >> mystics, criminals, dreamers, and madmen. All attempt to deal with
> > > >> reality by the same psychological mechanism.
> > > >> This over-emphasis on thought, the conviction that the hard wall of
> > > >> reality can be broken through in the mind, or indeed is not there at
> > > >> all, was what Freud claimed to have found in his neurotic patients,
> > > >> and called omnipotence of thought (Allmacht der Gedanken). The magic
> > > >> rites and spells of primitive man correspond psychologically to the
> > > >> obsessional actions and protective formulas of neurotics; so the
> > > >> neurotic is like the savage in that he 'believes he can change the
> > > >> outer world by a mere thought of his' (Freud: Totem and Taboo).
> > > >> Here again we have put before us a parallelism between ontogenetic and
> > > >> phylogenetic development: the individual passes through three
> > > >> libidinous phases, narcissism, object finding, which is characterized
> > > >> by dependence on the parents, and the state of maturity in which the
> > > >> individual accepts reality and adapts himself to it; and these phases
> > > >> correspond psychologically to the three stages in the intellectual
> > > >> development of man, the animistic (by which Freud seems to have meant
> > > >> what others would have called the magical), the religious, and the
> > > >> scientific.
> > > >> In the narcissistic phase, corresponding to magic, the child, unable
> > > >> to satisfy its desires through motor activity, compensates by
> > > >> overcoming its difficulties in imagination, substituting thought for
> > > >> action; he is then under analogous psychic conditions to the magician;
> > > >> and the neurotic is like the magician too, in that they both
> > > >> over-estimate the power of thought, as do, also, those who pray. In
> > > >> other words, it is tension, an acute sense of frustration, which
> > > >> generates magical ritual, the function of which is to relieve the
> > > >> tension. So prayer and magic both are little more than
> > > >> wish-fulfillment by which man attempts to experience gratification
> > > >> through motor hallucination. All of religious belief is likewise an
> > > >> illusion. It arises under the influence of guilt and is maintained by
> > > >> reminders of guilt.
> > > >> {some sections from an email from James Dern}
> > > >> --
> > > >> "Atheism is the natural condition of the Universe into which we are
> > > >> all born and where we innocently live unless cerebrally raped by
> > > >> indoctrination into some 'faith' by intellectually-challenged
> > > >> persuaders who prey mostly on children. People?s gods exist only
> > > >> as fictions inside their heads."
> > > >> [Dr. Terence Meaden]
> > > >> Virtual Gods:http://users3.jabry.com/sjewins/library/__philorelig.htm > > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > > > Groups "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > > > To post to this group, send email to
> > > > atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > > > atheism-vs-christianity+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit y%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
> > .
> > > > For more options, visit this group at
> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
> > > --
> > > "However many holy words you read, however many you speak,
> > > what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them?"
> > > [Buddha]
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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On Nov 4, 5:38 pm, JFG <thelemiccatho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Religious believers, most especially those that pray, only see what
> > > > they want to see,
> > > False.
> > > Proof: we see atheists.
> > Hum, interestingly revealing...
> > So, tell us, why is it that you would not want to see atheists?
> It is sad for us that there *are* atheists. No one wants to see what
> makes them sad.
Why is having atheists around a sad thing?
The simple believeth every word.
Pr. 14:15
_________________________________________________
Beliefs are what divide people. Doubt unites them.
-- Peter Ustinov
> The simple believeth every word.
> Pr. 14:15
> _________________________________________________
> Beliefs are what divide people. Doubt unites them.
> -- Peter Ustinov
On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 3:07 PM, JFG <thelemiccatho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 5, 2:23 pm, Answer_42 <ipu.belie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 4, 5:38 pm, JFG <thelemiccatho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > Religious believers, most especially those that pray, only see
> what
> > > > > > they want to see,
> > > > > False.
> > > > > Proof: we see atheists.
> > > > Hum, interestingly revealing...
> > > > So, tell us, why is it that you would not want to see atheists?
> > > It is sad for us that there *are* atheists. No one wants to see what
> > > makes them sad.
> > Why is having atheists around a sad thing?
> How will they be saved?
The same way as we are were *saved*. By the power of knowing that *God
raised Jesus from the dead*, and the witness of the Holy Spirit.
I cannot *save* anyone, or can you.
God says that we can talk about Him, and let people know how wonderful it is
to walk with Him, but we only plant the seed, water, and only once have I
witnessed the increase. And the increase is what God's does, not what we
do. So, keep on keeping on until Jesus comes to pick us up out of here.
And, God will accept any who are willing to believe that HE Exists.
God destroyed Sodom because the people of that day were unwilling to accept
that the God of Abraham was the True God. God destroyed the people in
Noah's day, because they failed to believe in the God that Noah preached
about. God will again destroy the earth -- but not until after the Rapture
of the Church and the Tribulation, and the 1,000 year reign of Jesus on
earth -- then there will be a new heaven and a new earth.
The Rapture of the Church could happen at any time, however, in the Israel
Calendar it is only 5770, which means that it can be 200 years until the
Rapture.
But, we who know the living God of the Bible and His Son Jesus, who have the
Holy Spirit's witness to the saving power of the Lord Jesus Christ, are
standing amazed in His Presence, and Thanking the God and Father of our Lord
Jesus Christ for all the blessings that HE has given us, and all that He
continues to do for little ole me.
> > The simple believeth every word.
> > Pr. 14:15
> > _________________________________________________
> > Beliefs are what divide people. Doubt unites them.
> > -- Peter Ustinov
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> To post to this group, send email to
> atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> atheism-vs-christianity+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit y%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
> .
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 6:33 AM, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 3:07 PM, JFG <thelemiccatho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 5, 2:23 pm, Answer_42 <ipu.belie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Nov 4, 5:38 pm, JFG <thelemiccatho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > > > Religious believers, most especially those that pray, only see
>> what
>> > > > > > they want to see,
>> > > > > False.
>> > > > > Proof: we see atheists.
>> > > > Hum, interestingly revealing...
>> > > > So, tell us, why is it that you would not want to see atheists?
>> > > It is sad for us that there *are* atheists. No one wants to see what
>> > > makes them sad.
>> > Why is having atheists around a sad thing?
>> How will they be saved?
> The same way as we are were *saved*. By the power of knowing that *God
> raised Jesus from the dead*, and the witness of the Holy Spirit.
> I cannot *save* anyone, or can you.
> God says that we can talk about Him, and let people know how wonderful it
> is to walk with Him, but we only plant the seed, water, and only once have I
> witnessed the increase. And the increase is what God's does, not what we
> do. So, keep on keeping on until Jesus comes to pick us up out of here.
> And, God will accept any who are willing to believe that HE Exists.
> God destroyed Sodom because the people of that day were unwilling to accept
> that the God of Abraham was the True God. God destroyed the people in
> Noah's day, because they failed to believe in the God that Noah preached
> about. God will again destroy the earth -- but not until after the Rapture
> of the Church and the Tribulation, and the 1,000 year reign of Jesus on
> earth -- then there will be a new heaven and a new earth.
> The Rapture of the Church could happen at any time, however, in the Israel
> Calendar it is only 5770, which means that it can be 200 years until the
> Rapture.
> But, we who know the living God of the Bible and His Son Jesus, who have
> the Holy Spirit's witness to the saving power of the Lord Jesus Christ, are
> standing amazed in His Presence, and Thanking the God and Father of our Lord
> Jesus Christ for all the blessings that HE has given us, and all that He
> continues to do for little ole me.
>> > The simple believeth every word.
>> > Pr. 14:15
>> > _________________________________________________
>> > Beliefs are what divide people. Doubt unites them.
>> > -- Peter Ustinov
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to
>> atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> atheism-vs-christianity+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit y%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
>> .
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> To post to this group, send email to
> atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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> .
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Doris Ragland <dr4...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Enjoyed -and True..except one thing---I have a hard time not loving people
> and trying
Thea
I believe that Jesus gives us unconditional love for all our fellow human
beings. It has been said that we love the person, not the sin we see in
their life.
It is the beginning of wisdom to understand that, *there but for the Grace
of God goeth I.*
Thanks
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 6:33 AM, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 3:07 PM, JFG <thelemiccatho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Nov 5, 2:23 pm, Answer_42 <ipu.belie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > On Nov 4, 5:38 pm, JFG <thelemiccatho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > > > > > Religious believers, most especially those that pray, only see
>>> what
>>> > > > > > they want to see,
>>> > > > > False.
>>> > > > > Proof: we see atheists.
>>> > > > Hum, interestingly revealing...
>>> > > > So, tell us, why is it that you would not want to see atheists?
>>> > > It is sad for us that there *are* atheists. No one wants to see what
>>> > > makes them sad.
>>> > Why is having atheists around a sad thing?
>>> How will they be saved?
>> The same way as we are were *saved*. By the power of knowing that *God
>> raised Jesus from the dead*, and the witness of the Holy Spirit.
>> I cannot *save* anyone, or can you.
>> God says that we can talk about Him, and let people know how wonderful it
>> is to walk with Him, but we only plant the seed, water, and only once have I
>> witnessed the increase. And the increase is what God's does, not what we
>> do. So, keep on keeping on until Jesus comes to pick us up out of here.
>> And, God will accept any who are willing to believe that HE Exists.
>> God destroyed Sodom because the people of that day were unwilling to
>> accept that the God of Abraham was the True God. God destroyed the people
>> in Noah's day, because they failed to believe in the God that Noah preached
>> about. God will again destroy the earth -- but not until after the Rapture
>> of the Church and the Tribulation, and the 1,000 year reign of Jesus on
>> earth -- then there will be a new heaven and a new earth.
>> The Rapture of the Church could happen at any time, however, in the Israel
>> Calendar it is only 5770, which means that it can be 200 years until the
>> Rapture.
>> But, we who know the living God of the Bible and His Son Jesus, who have
>> the Holy Spirit's witness to the saving power of the Lord Jesus Christ, are
>> standing amazed in His Presence, and Thanking the God and Father of our Lord
>> Jesus Christ for all the blessings that HE has given us, and all that He
>> continues to do for little ole me.
>>> > The simple believeth every word.
>>> > Pr. 14:15
>>> > _________________________________________________
>>> > Beliefs are what divide people. Doubt unites them.
>>> > -- Peter Ustinov
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
>>> To post to this group, send email to
>>> atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> atheism-vs-christianity+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit y%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
>>> .
>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to
>> atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> atheism-vs-christianity+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit y%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
>> .
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> To post to this group, send email to
> atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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> .
> For more options, visit this group at
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On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 11:49 AM, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Doris Ragland <dr4...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Enjoyed -and True..except one thing---I have a hard time not loving people
>> and trying
> Thea
> I believe that Jesus gives us unconditional love for all our fellow human
> beings. It has been said that we love the person, not the sin we see in
> their life.
> It is the beginning of wisdom to understand that, *there but for the Grace
> of God goeth I.*
Thea,
You're kind words are profound, and echo a very heartfelt truth. :)
> > > > > > Religious believers, most especially those that pray, only see what
> > > > > > they want to see,
> > > > > False.
> > > > > Proof: we see atheists.
> > > > Hum, interestingly revealing...
> > > > So, tell us, why is it that you would not want to see atheists?
> > > It is sad for us that there *are* atheists. No one wants to see what
> > > makes them sad.
> > Why is having atheists around a sad thing?
> How will they be saved?
Saved from what?
In any case, according to your beliefs, it ain't of your business.
Shouldn't you be happy that god will take care of them as he sees fit?
Are you saying that you are sad because of a situation that your own
benevolent god set up?
How ungrateful and presumptuous!
Maybe he has a special plan for them?
So you can stop with the crocodile tears.
The simple believeth every word.
Pr. 14:15
__________________________________________
Science means simply the aggregate of all the recipes that are always
successful. All the rest is literature.
-- Paul Valéry
On Nov 6, 11:49 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Enjoyed -and True..except one thing---I have a hard time not loving people
> > and trying
> Thea
> I believe that Jesus gives us unconditional love for all our fellow human
> beings. It has been said that we love the person, not the sin we see in
> their life.
> It is the beginning of wisdom to understand that, *there but for the Grace
> of God goeth I.*
So you praise your god for giving you the wisdom to see that you could
have ended up in a bad spot, so be content with what you have...
However, how do you figure that this silly expression relates to
people born with birth defects that renders their entire life
miserable?
I guess that the logic behind that "great" saying is that all you have
to do is find someone more miserable than yourself in order to be
content. Basically, you build your happiness on the misfortune of
others. Yes, great expression that is.
The simple believeth every word.
Pr. 14:15
__________________________________________
Science means simply the aggregate of all the recipes that are always
successful. All the rest is literature.
-- Paul Valéry
On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Answer_42 <ipu.belie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 6, 11:49 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Enjoyed -and True..except one thing---I have a hard time not loving
> people
> > > and trying
> > Thea
> > I believe that Jesus gives us unconditional love for all our fellow human
> > beings. It has been said that we love the person, not the sin we see in
> > their life.
> > It is the beginning of wisdom to understand that, *there but for the
> Grace
> > of God goeth I.*
> So you praise your god for giving you the wisdom to see that you could
> have ended up in a bad spot, so be content with what you have...
> However, how do you figure that this silly expression relates to
> people born with birth defects that renders their entire life
> miserable?
> I guess that the logic behind that "great" saying is that all you have
> to do is find someone more miserable than yourself in order to be
> content. Basically, you build your happiness on the misfortune of
> others. Yes, great expression that is.
> The simple believeth every word.
> Pr. 14:15
I praise the Lord Jesus Christ for being true to HIS Promise of not only
salvation, but the presence of the Holy Spirit, which HE promised.
I praise my God for the love HE has for HIS Creation. For being my Dad -
and treating me as His Child.
And on the note of children born with birth defects --
I heard of birth defects that are humanly caused - and I have heard of birth
defects that have been healed in healing services over the years. There are
many reasons -- for a birth defect. But, my God who is the God of Abraham,
Isaac and Jacob (Israel) says HE will heal if asked. The problem is no one
is willing to pay the price to get healing anymore.
By the way - I had something happen to me years ago, in which one of my eyes
got burned on the back of the eye-ball by looking at welding that was going
on - I didn't know they were welding in the building, and opened the door to
the shop, and my eye had a spot on it for a long time because of it.
That spot has been healed - don't know when it happened - but the spot is no
longer on the back on my eye-ball.
So my God does heal.
> __________________________________________
> Science means simply the aggregate of all the recipes that are always
> successful. All the rest is literature.
> -- Paul Valéry
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> To post to this group, send email to
> atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> atheism-vs-christianity+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit y%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
> .
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
> I cannot *save* anyone, or can you.
> God says that we can talk about Him, and let people know how wonderful it is
> to walk with Him, but we only plant the seed, water, and only once have I
> witnessed the increase. And the increase is what God's does, not what we
> do. So, keep on keeping on until Jesus comes to pick us up out of here.
> And, God will accept any who are willing to believe that HE Exists.
> God destroyed Sodom because the people of that day were unwilling to accept
> that the God of Abraham was the True God. God destroyed the people in
> Noah's day, because they failed to believe in the God that Noah preached
> about. God will again destroy the earth -- but not until after the Rapture
> of the Church and the Tribulation, and the 1,000 year reign of Jesus on
> earth -- then there will be a new heaven and a new earth.
> The Rapture of the Church could happen at any time, however, in the Israel
> Calendar it is only 5770, which means that it can be 200 years until the
> Rapture.
> But, we who know the living God of the Bible and His Son Jesus, who have the
> Holy Spirit's witness to the saving power of the Lord Jesus Christ, are
> standing amazed in His Presence, and Thanking the God and Father of our Lord
> Jesus Christ for all the blessings that HE has given us, and all that He
> continues to do for little ole me.
> > > The simple believeth every word.
> > > Pr. 14:15
> > > _________________________________________________
> > > Beliefs are what divide people. Doubt unites them.
> > > -- Peter Ustinov
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-christianity+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit y%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
> > The simple believeth every word.
> > Pr. 14:15
> I praise the Lord Jesus Christ for being true to HIS Promise of not only
> salvation, but the presence of the Holy Spirit, which HE promised.
> I praise my God for the love HE has for HIS Creation. For being my Dad -
> and treating me as His Child.
> And on the note of children born with birth defects --
> I heard of birth defects that are humanly caused - and I have heard of birth
> defects that have been healed in healing services over the years. There are
> many reasons -- for a birth defect. But, my God who is the God of Abraham,
> Isaac and Jacob (Israel) says HE will heal if asked. The problem is no one
> is willing to pay the price to get healing anymore.
> By the way - I had something happen to me years ago, in which one of my eyes
> got burned on the back of the eye-ball by looking at welding that was going
> on - I didn't know they were welding in the building, and opened the door to
> the shop, and my eye had a spot on it for a long time because of it.
> That spot has been healed - don't know when it happened - but the spot is no
> longer on the back on my eye-ball.
> So my God does heal.
Praise be to Jeebus!
The simple believeth every word.
Pr. 14:15
__________________________________________
Science means simply the aggregate of all the recipes that are always
successful. All the rest is literature.
-- Paul Valéry
|
