why not climb into a time machine and go ask them yourself? why are
you asking xtians this? do you think this type of grilling is
important or going to lead to any new-found knowledge? what is your
agenda here other than to attempt to destroy their belief? you ask
questions that you know nobody can answer, but you fail to grasp that
words written by man in ancient times do not hold that much importance
to some xtians, who enjoy their belief from the comfort of the couch,
not the pew.
On Nov 7, 8:22 am, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> why not climb into a time machine and go ask them yourself? why are
> you asking xtians this? do you think this type of grilling is
> important or going to lead to any new-found knowledge? what is your
> agenda here other than to attempt to destroy their belief? you ask
> questions that you know nobody can answer, but you fail to grasp that
> words written by man in ancient times do not hold that much importance
> to some xtians, who enjoy their belief from the comfort of the couch,
> not the pew.
I understand that very well. Evidence that the basis of a belief is not as it is assumed works very well for me in convincing Christians to abandon their superstitions. 36 deconverts over 40 years ain't too bad.
So, if you don't think it is worthwhile, I disagree, and I have more to post.
> On Nov 7, 8:22 am, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Acts 9:7 states the men with Paul on the road to Damascus stood speechless, hearing the voice but not seeing anyone.
>> Unfortunately in Acts 22:9 we find that they did not hear the voice but saw the light.
>> To make things even worse, in Acts 26:14 we read that they all fell to the ground and did hear the voice.
>> Now, what I want to know is: did they stand or fall, hear and not see, or see and not hear?
>> --
>> "The mind is everything. What you think you become."
>> [Buddha]
>> Virtual Gods:http://users3.jabry.com/sjewins/library/__philorelig.htm > --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> To post to this group, send email to
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-- "The mind is everything. What you think you become."
[Buddha]
On Nov 7, 5:22 am, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Acts 9:7 states the men with Paul on the road to Damascus stood speechless, hearing the voice but not seeing anyone.
> Unfortunately in Acts 22:9 we find that they did not hear the voice but saw the light.
> To make things even worse, in Acts 26:14 we read that they all fell to the ground and did hear the voice.
Acts 9:3-4 - Paul sees a light, falls to the ground and hears a voice
Acts 22:6-7 - Paul see a light, falls to the ground and hears a voice
Acts 26:13-14 - Paul sees a light and falls to the ground and hears a
voice
Acts 9:7 - His companions stand speechless, heard a sound but saw no
one.
Acts 22:9 - His companions saw the light but did not understand the
voice
Acts 26:14 - His companions fall to the ground
Acts 9:8 - Paul got up from the ground
Acts 22:10 - Paul told to get up
Acts 22:16 - Paul told to get up
So since when is hearing a sound but not understanding the voice a
contradiction? Happened to me all the time when I lived in Italy.
And not that infrequently where I am now.
And why is seeing a light but not a person an issue?
At best all you have here is did they stand or did they fall. Could
be that they did both.
> Now, what I want to know is: did they stand or fall, hear and not see, or see and not hear?
Do you really want to know? If I cleared it up for you, would you
become a Christian? Or maybe you think that you can cause me to doubt
just because you have revealed to me some apparent trifling
inconsistency, one that I have know about for decades?
> Do you really want to know? If I cleared it up for you, would you
> become a Christian?
As far as I can see all you did was repeat what I had posted and confirm it.
> Or maybe you think that you can cause me to doubt
> just because you have revealed to me some apparent trifling
> inconsistency, one that I have know about for decades?
Trifling * 1,000 (or more) should become a concern.
Many small cracks destroy bridges.
More trifling will follow, feel free to comment on them.
-- "In my life, I have prayed but one prayer: Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous. And God granted it."
[Voltaire]
> Acts 9:7 - His companions stand speechless, heard a sound but saw no
> one.
> Acts 22:9 - His companions saw the light but did not understand the
> voice
Ooops, just noticed you tried to slip a mistranslated word by me in 22:9. The Greek does not say that they did not understand, it uses the word Ekousan = "they hear".
phOnEn ouk Ekousan
Sound Not They Hear
-- "In my life, I have prayed but one prayer: Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous. And God granted it."
[Voltaire]
On Nov 7, 3:29 pm, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [OldMan]
> > Acts 9:7 - His companions stand speechless, heard a sound but saw no
> > one.
> > Acts 22:9 - His companions saw the light but did not understand the
> > voice
> Ooops, just noticed you tried to slip a mistranslated word by me in 22:9. The Greek does not say that they did not understand, it uses the word Ekousan = "they hear".
> phOnEn ouk Ekousan
> Sound Not They Hear
They did hear the voice, but did not understand it. No contradiction
there.
> They did hear the voice, but did not understand it. No contradiction
> there.
Nice try. No cigar. The Greek says they did not hear. Nothing is mentioned about understanding. There is a perfectly good word in Greek for understand and it was not used.
Please re-read and play again.
-- "In my life, I have prayed but one prayer: Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous. And God granted it."
[Voltaire]
On Nov 7, 5:27 am, showmethehoney <alenasha...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> why not climb into a time machine and go ask them yourself? why are
> you asking xtians this? do you think this type of grilling is
> important or going to lead to any new-found knowledge? what is your
> agenda here other than to attempt to destroy their belief?
LL: Maybe we'd just like to hear some arguments from reason. So far
we've heard none. We ask xtians because they are the ones making the
unsupported claims.
> questions that you know nobody can answer, but you fail to grasp that
> words written by man in ancient times do not hold that much importance
> to some xtians, who enjoy their belief from the comfort of the couch,
> not the pew.
> On Nov 7, 8:22 am, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Acts 9:7 states the men with Paul on the road to Damascus stood speechless, hearing the voice but not seeing anyone.
> > Unfortunately in Acts 22:9 we find that they did not hear the voice but saw the light.
> > To make things even worse, in Acts 26:14 we read that they all fell to the ground and did hear the voice.
> > Now, what I want to know is: did they stand or fall, hear and not see, or see and not hear?
> > --
> > "The mind is everything. What you think you become."
> > [Buddha]
On Nov 7, 7:09 am, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [OldMan]
> > Do you really want to know? If I cleared it up for you, would you
> > become a Christian?
> As far as I can see all you did was repeat what I had posted and confirm it.
Not much for reading for comprehension are we.
> > Or maybe you think that you can cause me to doubt
> > just because you have revealed to me some apparent trifling
> > inconsistency, one that I have know about for decades?
> Trifling * 1,000 (or more) should become a concern.
> Many small cracks destroy bridges.
> More trifling will follow, feel free to comment on them.
Probably not. You have demonstrated here that you are not really
looking for an answer, so why should I waste my time. Enjoy your
game.
> On Nov 7, 7:09 am, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> [OldMan]
>> > Do you really want to know? If I cleared it up for you, would you
>> > become a Christian?
>> As far as I can see all you did was repeat what I had posted and confirm it.
> Not much for reading for comprehension are we.
That is almost a record for the shortest time for a Christian to resort to insults. Well done.
> You have demonstrated here that you are not really
> looking for an answer, so why should I waste my time. Enjoy your
> game.
I have answers. I am looking to create small seeds of doubt. Usually these seeds fall amongst those who read and don't post. Most of those that have deconverted because of my seeds have told me that it is the inane replies of Christians that tip their move away from Christianity to sanity.
So, thanks. You don't know who you may have helped today.
-- "In my life, I have prayed but one prayer: Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous. And God granted it."
[Voltaire]
On Nov 7, 11:22 pm, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Acts 9:7 states the men with Paul on the road to Damascus stood speechless, hearing the voice but not seeing anyone.
> Unfortunately in Acts 22:9 we find that they did not hear the voice but saw the light.
> To make things even worse, in Acts 26:14 we read that they all fell to the ground and did hear the voice.
> Now, what I want to know is: did they stand or fall, hear and not see, or see and not hear?
You are doing an excellent job in pointing out the problem of
following the bible literally.
People who do, must have split personalities in order to "deal" with
all the contradictions.
> You are doing an excellent job in pointing out the problem of
> following the bible literally.
> People who do, must have split personalities in order to "deal" with
> all the contradictions.
Thanks. I have noticed over the years that many deny taking the Bible literally but will still quote it literally as a truth of some sort. I am not convinced that most Christians do not take most of the Bible literally.
Also, some of these contradictions are not so much to do with the literal aspects of a reading. They have to do with how trustworthy a source can be with evidence (clear) of editing and contradictions that are part of the basic theology involved.
St. Paul said that if Christ was not risen then Christianity was a lie. Well, I have news, Christ did not rise and the best demonstration is the muddles, contradictory and confused accounts of events surrounding the most important aspect of Christian theology, doctrine and even beliefs of the less well-informed.
Hey, sowing seeds of doubt often has huge returns in freeing the slaves of Christ.
-- "In my life, I have prayed but one prayer: Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous. And God granted it."
[Voltaire]
On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [philosophy]
> > You are doing an excellent job in pointing out the problem of
> > following the bible literally.
> > People who do, must have split personalities in order to "deal" with
> > all the contradictions.
> Thanks. I have noticed over the years that many deny taking the Bible
> literally but will still quote it literally as a truth of some sort. I am
> not convinced that most Christians do not take most of the Bible literally.
> Also, some of these contradictions are not so much to do with the literal
> aspects of a reading. They have to do with how trustworthy a source can be
> with evidence (clear) of editing and contradictions that are part of the
> basic theology involved.
> St. Paul said that if Christ was not risen then Christianity was a lie.
> Well, I have news, Christ did not rise and the best demonstration is the
> muddles, contradictory and confused accounts of events surrounding the most
> important aspect of Christian theology, doctrine and even beliefs of the
> less well-informed.
> Hey, sowing seeds of doubt often has huge returns in freeing the slaves of
> Christ.
> --
> "In my life, I have prayed but one prayer: Oh Lord, make my enemies
> ridiculous. And God granted it."
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> To post to this group, send email to
> atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> atheism-vs-christianity+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit y%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
> .
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
> > On Nov 7, 7:09 am, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> [OldMan]
> >> > Do you really want to know? If I cleared it up for you, would you
> >> > become a Christian?
> >> As far as I can see all you did was repeat what I had posted and confirm it.
> > Not much for reading for comprehension are we.
> That is almost a record for the shortest time for a Christian to resort to insults. Well done.
> > You have demonstrated here that you are not really
> > looking for an answer, so why should I waste my time. Enjoy your
> > game.
> I have answers. I am looking to create small seeds of doubt. Usually these seeds fall amongst those who read and don't post. Most of those that have deconverted because of my seeds have told me that it is the inane replies of Christians that tip their move away from Christianity to sanity.
> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > [philosophy]
> > > You are doing an excellent job in pointing out the problem of
> > > following the bible literally.
> > > People who do, must have split personalities in order to "deal" with
> > > all the contradictions.
> > Thanks. I have noticed over the years that many deny taking the Bible
> > literally but will still quote it literally as a truth of some sort. I am
> > not convinced that most Christians do not take most of the Bible literally.
> > Also, some of these contradictions are not so much to do with the literal
> > aspects of a reading. They have to do with how trustworthy a source can be
> > with evidence (clear) of editing and contradictions that are part of the
> > basic theology involved.
> > St. Paul said that if Christ was not risen then Christianity was a lie.
> > Well, I have news, Christ did not rise and the best demonstration is the
> > muddles, contradictory and confused accounts of events surrounding the most
> > important aspect of Christian theology, doctrine and even beliefs of the
> > less well-informed.
> > Hey, sowing seeds of doubt often has huge returns in freeing the slaves of
> > Christ.
> > --
> > "In my life, I have prayed but one prayer: Oh Lord, make my enemies
> > ridiculous. And God granted it."
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-christianity+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit y%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
Yes I mean it you are very insulting ---and for some reason you presist on
going on couarse of riping people apart of coarse you explained this why you
do this stupid religion and christain's---Let me give an assessment of
you...you have run out of patience...
On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 11:40 PM, Observer <mayors...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 8, 2:00 pm, Doris Ragland <dr4...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > You know I cannot believe how you guys think ....your tactatics stink..
> Observer
> That is the filth of Christianity that you smell.
> Psychonomist
> > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > [philosophy]
> > > > You are doing an excellent job in pointing out the problem of
> > > > following the bible literally.
> > > > People who do, must have split personalities in order to "deal" with
> > > > all the contradictions.
> > > Thanks. I have noticed over the years that many deny taking the Bible
> > > literally but will still quote it literally as a truth of some sort. I
> am
> > > not convinced that most Christians do not take most of the Bible
> literally.
> > > Also, some of these contradictions are not so much to do with the
> literal
> > > aspects of a reading. They have to do with how trustworthy a source can
> be
> > > with evidence (clear) of editing and contradictions that are part of
> the
> > > basic theology involved.
> > > St. Paul said that if Christ was not risen then Christianity was a lie.
> > > Well, I have news, Christ did not rise and the best demonstration is
> the
> > > muddles, contradictory and confused accounts of events surrounding the
> most
> > > important aspect of Christian theology, doctrine and even beliefs of
> the
> > > less well-informed.
> > > Hey, sowing seeds of doubt often has huge returns in freeing the slaves
> of
> > > Christ.
> > > --
> > > "In my life, I have prayed but one prayer: Oh Lord, make my enemies
> > > ridiculous. And God granted it."
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups
> > > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > > To post to this group, send email to
> > > atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > > atheism-vs-christianity+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit y%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com><atheism-vs-christianit
> y%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com <y%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>>
> > > .
> > > For more options, visit this group at
> > >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> To post to this group, send email to
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On Nov 9, 12:23 pm, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [Maggsy]
> > In your previous post you said that Ekousan = "they hear". You are the
> > one who is contradicting themselves not the Bible.
> Sigh.
> phOnEn ouk Ekousan
> Sound Not They Hear
> See the word 'not'?
The following is from a book titled "Encyclopedia of Bible
Difficulties" by Gleason L. Archer:
...Did they hear the Voice from heaven or did they not? Acts 9:7
states: "But the men who were journeying with Paul were standing
speechless, hearing the Voice (akoumontes men tes phones),
butbeholding no one." In Acts 22:9, on the other hand, we are told,
"...but they did not hear the Voice (ten de phonen ouk ekousan) ..."
In the original Greek, however, there is no real contradiction between
these two statements. Greek makes a distinction between hearing a
sound as a noise (in which case the verb "to hear" takes the genitive
case) and hearing a voice as a thought-conveying message (in which
case it takes the accusative). Therefore, as we put the two statements
together we find that Paul's companions heard the Voice as a sound
(somewhat like the crowd who heard the sound of the Father talking to
the Son in John 12:28, but perceived it only as thunder); but they did
not (like Paul) hear the message that it articulated. Paul alone heard
it intelligibly (Acts 9:45 says Paul ekousen phonen - accusative
case);
There is an instructive parallel here between the inability to hear
the voice as an articulated message and their inability to see the
glory of the risen Lord as anything but a blaze of light. Acts 22:9
says that they saw the light, but Acts 9:7 makes it clear that they
did not see the Person who displayed Himself in that light. There is a
clear analogy between these differing levels of perception in each
case.
On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 9:29 AM, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [OldMan]
> > Acts 9:7 - His companions stand speechless, heard a sound but saw no
> > one.
> > Acts 22:9 - His companions saw the light but did not understand the
> > voice
If you are not the person God is talking to -- you do not hear what is being
said to someone else. God only speaks to His People in order for His People
to do what HE wishes them to do.
So, why should they have heard what God said to Saul (St. Paul)?
> Ooops, just noticed you tried to slip a mistranslated word by me in 22:9.
> The Greek does not say that they did not understand, it uses the word
> Ekousan = "they hear".
> phOnEn ouk Ekousan
> Sound Not They Hear
> --
> "In my life, I have prayed but one prayer: Oh Lord, make my enemies
> ridiculous. And God granted it."
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> To post to this group, send email to
> atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> atheism-vs-christianity+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit y%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
> .
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
> Why is it? It's not like I'm asking for their real names and
> address.Username's will do. Or are you making things up?
I don't violate peoples privacy.
There are no usernames from this forum. Some are from FidoNet BBS Echoes such as Holysmoke and Atheism, some (most) are from MSNBC's no defunct BBS called Faith and Spirituality between 1996 and 2001. Some are individuals that I have discussed with in mailing lists like INERRANCY and GODEXIST.
Also, 4 that i know of are now dead.
So you wouldn't know any of them
-- "In my life, I have prayed but one prayer: Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous. And God granted it."
[Voltaire]
If you are not the person God is talking to -- you do not hear what is being said to someone else. God only speaks to His People in order for His People to do what HE wishes them to do.
So, why should they have heard what God said to Saul (St. Paul)?
So he shows light to people he is not talking to?
You Christians are so cute when you rationalize. Anyway, its your problem so you can adopt whatever fantasy you like to rationalize it.
-- "In my life, I have prayed but one prayer: Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous. And God granted it."
[Voltaire]
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