Good point. Humanity right now is in growing pains, but gradually humans are becoming more humane. The upward movement of humanity may be inevitable. We are going to do away with crime, brutality, war, poverty, intolerance, disease and someday even natural disasters if we wish.
On 9/2/07, gousaphe <dangdang...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The evil situation is the last thing that deserves our attention > (Matthew 5.39). Because 'all this evil to happen in this world' are > but very, very small comparing to all the goodness that are happening > in this world (The parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew > 13.24).
> On Sep 2, 5:48 pm, zuhair <zaljo...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Hi
> > If God is Omnipotent and Omniscient and Omnibenovolent, > > then why he permited all this evil to happen in this world?
> > I would like to know the answers Monotheists have for this question.
> > Zuhair
-- copyright Ambassador From Hell Keith A. MacNevins Elk Grove Village, IL USA
> On Sep 2, 7:48 am, zuhair <zaljo...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Hi
> > If God is Omnipotent and Omniscient and Omnibenovolent, > > then why he permited all this evil to happen in this world?
> > I would like to know the answers Monotheists have for this question.
> I would agree that God is omnipotent and omniscient. But I see no > reason to apply the term omnibenevolent, at least what the term says > to me, to God. God is willing to allow people to make whatever > choices they want, including those that are harmful to themselves or > others.
-- copyright Ambassador From Hell Keith A. MacNevins Elk Grove Village, IL USA
> > This life is only a test period. The real life is in the here after. > > It makes lots of sense in this case if God left us passing through the > test, > > to prove to us where we deserve to go after that
> We must all suffer to meet god after our death. Great. When a mouse is > eaten alive > by a cat, surely he suffers a lot before he dies. Does that mean the > mouse will also > go to heaven? If not, why does god allow that animals have to suffer > the way > they do? I will never forget my cat that died 5 years ago with feline > AIDS. > It took her 4 weeks of suffering until I got the strenth to take her > to a Vet to > put her down. Animals have nothing to do with the "original sin" of > Adam and Eve. > Could it be possible that they suffer because they do not believe in > god? > Does this also make a lot of sense to you, Ahmad Shalaby? Not to me.
-- copyright Ambassador From Hell Keith A. MacNevins Elk Grove Village, IL USA
> It is the wise and the wicked who know this for sure. But in their own > selfish interests they propogate the concept of god amongst the > gullible and make them spend their life in misery and evil.
> The concept of god was propagated by humans to create and maintain a > just and peaceful society. However with so much of population over so > many thousands of years, there are too many views with obvious self > contradictions as well as contradictions with other beliefs. People > with vested self interests create problems for others and thereby > promote evilness.
> There is no reason why the earth itself should not be a perfectly good > heaven as envisaged by most religions. However the selfish approach > and narrow mindedness of all humans(in?) takes this world far away > from that heaven.
> On Sep 2, 7:48 pm, zuhair <zaljo...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Hi
> > If God is Omnipotent and Omniscient and Omnibenovolent, > > then why he permited all this evil to happen in this world?
> > I would like to know the answers Monotheists have for this question.
> > Zuhair
-- copyright Ambassador From Hell Keith A. MacNevins Elk Grove Village, IL USA
Are you sure it does not make sense to burn in hell forever for the sins one made.
Or is it that you don't want to believe in it so you can have peace and be happy about your after death?
The concept of reward and punishment is there. Without it, this life would be nothing but a misery. In spite of the legal and punishment systems, there is still lots of crimes and horrible actions in the world, probably because of corruption and that punishment system is not strict enough in many cases.
Not only in the legislative system, but at school in your work, you could get fired or get prmoted/get better marks based on your actions.
Otherwise, there is no justice in the world if both the killer and the victim got the same treatment at the end regardless.
> On Sep 2, 8:07 am, Dev <thedevil...@fastmail.fm> wrote: > > The central argument is the "free will" one which makes literally zero > > sense. You could write a hundred pages easily on how bullshit it is. > > Basically, we don't have the "free will" to get evidence for God but > > we have the "free will" to burn forever for requesting evidence.
> I think they should have some arguments. Why not try to listen to what > they say before we criticize it.
> Not all theists believe in burning forever in hell.
> It makes no sense at all to believe in such a thing.
> Zuhair
> > On Sep 2, 9:01 am, Dave <dvor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > If God is Omnipotent and Omniscient and Omnibenovolent, > > > > then why he permited all this evil to happen in this world?
> > > > I would like to know the answers Monotheists have for this question.
> > > Theists do not have answers, they have excuses. Your argument is an > > > old one. Here is a little history: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil- Hide quoted text -
On Sep 4, 1:20 pm, "Ahmad Shalaby" <amashal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In spite of the legal and punishment systems, there is still lots of crimes > and horrible actions in the world, probably because of corruption and that > punishment system is not strict enough in many cases.
Not strict enough? Not strict enough according to...whom?
> Are you sure it does not make sense to burn in hell forever for the sins one > made.
> Or is it that you don't want to believe in it so you can have peace and be > happy about your after death?
> The concept of reward and punishment is there. Without it, this life would > be nothing but a misery. > In spite of the legal and punishment systems, there is still lots of crimes > and horrible actions in the world, probably because of corruption and that > punishment system is not strict enough in many cases.
> Not only in the legislative system, but at school in your work, you could > get fired or get prmoted/get better marks based on your actions.
> Otherwise, there is no justice in the world if both the killer and the > victim got the same treatment at the end regardless.
> Unless you insist to believe otherwise.
> Ahmad.
I didn't object to the concept of punishement of evil. It is clear that evil should be punished. What I objected to is the concept of ETERNAL punishement in hell. This concept doesn't make any sense at all.
The ETERNAL punishement view further complicates the problem of evil such as to make it almost unsolvable.
Just contemplate the following line of though such as to know what I am thinking of:
If you say there is ETERNAL punishement in hell.
The outstanding question would be:
IF God was Omnibenovolent and Omniscient then why he created beings that he know since ever that they will ultimately choose and do the bad and go to hell forever.
A god that create such end point as 'Eternal damnation' cannot be imagined whatsoever as a Good loving God, this God is evil itself no doubt.
The concept of punishement that is not eternal is acceptable because that what justace entails. But eternal punishement is not acceptable at all.
Not only that, It is unjust to punish finite beings doing finite evil by sending them INFINITLY to hell, this is by itself not just.
As I said the concept of ETERNAL punishement in hell is illogical unethical and further complicate the problem of evil to the degree of unsolvability.
> > On Sep 2, 8:07 am, Dev <thedevil...@fastmail.fm> wrote: > > > The central argument is the "free will" one which makes literally zero > > > sense. You could write a hundred pages easily on how bullshit it is. > > > Basically, we don't have the "free will" to get evidence for God but > > > we have the "free will" to burn forever for requesting evidence.
> > I think they should have some arguments. Why not try to listen to what > > they say before we criticize it.
> > Not all theists believe in burning forever in hell.
> > It makes no sense at all to believe in such a thing.
> > Zuhair
> > > On Sep 2, 9:01 am, Dave <dvor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 2, 1:46 pm, OldMan <edjarr...@msn.com> wrote:
> > On Sep 2, 7:48 am, zuhair <zaljo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Hi
> > > If God is Omnipotent and Omniscient and Omnibenovolent, > > > then why he permited all this evil to happen in this world?
> > > I would like to know the answers Monotheists have for this question.
> > I would agree that God is omnipotent and omniscient.
> Think about it, that is a clear logical fallacy. Under that God > cannot do something or cannot see something: change the future. If he > changes it, he may be omnipotent but then the future he knew is wrong, > and if he does not, then he may be omniscient, but not omnipotent.
You are assuming that time is linear for God in the same way it is for us. I do not believe God knows the future per say. Rather my future is God's now.
> > > > If God is Omnipotent and Omniscient and Omnibenovolent, > > > > then why he permited all this evil to happen in this world?
> > > > I would like to know the answers Monotheists have for this question.
> > > I would agree that God is omnipotent and omniscient.
> > Think about it, that is a clear logical fallacy. Under that God > > cannot do something or cannot see something: change the future. If he > > changes it, he may be omnipotent but then the future he knew is wrong, > > and if he does not, then he may be omniscient, but not omnipotent.
> You are assuming that time is linear for God in the same way it is for > us.
While I'd be on firm ground in making that assumption, it makes no difference, since omniscience is defined in the same units.
> I do not believe God knows the future per say. Rather my future > is God's now.
Which only shifts the time scale. He is still either omniscient or omnipotent.
Which, or what godthing would you be refering to and has it ever been proven to exist?
Unless and until you can answer the above; the rest of your question is meaningless, based on an assumption as it is, that such a thing as gods is at all possible.
On Sep 2, 3:48 pm, zuhair <zaljo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
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