On Nov 4, 12:40 pm, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [A Query]
> > Why do you keep avoiding my question?
> I am not ready to answer it yet. I need to know who I am dealing with, if they are going to be able to understand my answers.
> Why do you keep avoiding my question?
Because I shouldn't have to answer. My views aren't the issue here.
I'm asking you to defend your position and so far you have been unable
to do that. Let me ask you again:
Do you expect that others would agree with you about what you think is
*good*? Why do you expect this?
What basis do you have for your assumption that what you think is
*good* really is *good* in an objective sense?
> Because I shouldn't have to answer. My views aren't the issue here.
> I'm asking you to defend your position and so far you have been unable
> to do that.
I am not unable, in fact I am trying to start. I'm trying, but I can't demonstrate anything unless you answer mine.
So, I will start to answer your question, through a series of questions that will show you the answer, if you are really interested in the answer, that is.
Do you accept or deny that all those verses are good?
-- "However many holy words you read, however many you speak,
what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them?"
[Buddha]
On Nov 4, 1:05 pm, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [A Query]
> > Because I shouldn't have to answer. My views aren't the issue here.
> > I'm asking you to defend your position and so far you have been unable
> > to do that.
> I am not unable, in fact I am trying to start. I'm trying, but I can't demonstrate anything unless you answer mine.
> So, I will start to answer your question, through a series of questions that will show you the answer, if you are really interested in the answer, that is.
> Do you accept or deny that all those verses are good?
Of course I accept that they are good. The purpose of this exercise
was to try and show you that you have no right to make such claims on
an atheistic worldview. My position is this: I believe that such
things as good and evil exist. I believe in an objective moral reality
grounded in the existence of God. Hence I believe that morality is
contingent on the existence of God. I therefore believe I can make
claims about what is good and evil only because such things exist, and
only because they find their root in a transcendent, perfectly good
being.
>> Do you accept or deny that all those verses are good?
[A Query]
> Of course I accept that they are good. The purpose of this exercise
> was to try and show you that you have no right to make such claims on
> an atheistic worldview.
It is my thread, I'll decide what its purpose is.
So, wonderful, see? We already agree on a lot of things that are good. What about bad?
Do you agree that all these are bad?
-------------------
1: Rudeness.
(Mark 7:25 NRSV) but a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit immediately heard about him, and she came and bowed down at his feet.
(Mark 7:26 NRSV) Now the woman was a Gentile, of Syrophoenician origin. She begged him to cast the demon out of her daughter.
(Mark 7:27 NRSV) He said to her, "Let the children be fed first, for it is not fair to take the children?s food and throw it to the dogs."
--------------------
2: Sending someone important to you to be raped.
(Judg 19:22 NRSV) While they were enjoying themselves, the men of the city, a perverse lot, surrounded the house, and started pounding on the door. They said to the old man, the master of the house, "Bring out the man who came into your house, so that we may have intercourse with him."
(Judg 19:24 NRSV) (The old man) Here are my virgin daughter and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do whatever you want to them; but against this man do not
do such a vile thing."
(Judg 19:25 NRSV) ? So the man seized his concubine, and put her out to them. They wantonly raped her, and abused her all through the night until the morning. And as the dawn began
to break, they let her go.
--------------------
3: Violence against children.
(Judg 21:10 NRSV) So the congregation sent twelve thousand soldiers there and commanded them, "Go, put the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead to the sword, including the women and the little ones.
--------------------
4: Inequality of women.
(1 Tim 2:9-12 NRSV) also that the women should dress themselves modestly and decently in suitable clothing, not with their hair braided, or with gold, pearls, or expensive clothes, ?
Let a woman learn in silence with full submission.
I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent.
--------------------
5: Murder and theft to pay off a debt.
(Judg 14:19 KJV) And the spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he went down to Ashkelon, and slew thirty men of them, and took their spoil, and gave change of garments unto them which expounded the riddle?
Only five things from the Bible and now just one that is mentioned nowhere in the Bible:
Pedophilia. Bad?
Do we also, agree, then on just 6 things that are bad?
-- "However many holy words you read, however many you speak,
what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them?"
[Buddha]
You are still blatantly refusing to answer my questions, and now you
try to divert the discussion into an irrelevant assessment of my own
view. If you will not my questions, I will not answer yours.
On Nov 4, 1:46 pm, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Do you accept or deny that all those verses are good?
> [A Query]
> > Of course I accept that they are good. The purpose of this exercise
> > was to try and show you that you have no right to make such claims on
> > an atheistic worldview.
> It is my thread, I'll decide what its purpose is.
> So, wonderful, see? We already agree on a lot of things that are good.
Unfortunately, I don't believe you have any right to agree with me on
what is *good* on an atheistic worldview. Furthermore you haven't
given me any indication that you can at all account for the reality of
good and evil which you are assuming here. Before we go any further,
you need to defend your original assertion, which I have asked you to
do many times. I will not engage with you if you continue to refuse to
defend your assumptions about good and evil.
> (Mark 7:25 NRSV) but a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit immediately heard about him, and she came and bowed down at his feet.
> (Mark 7:26 NRSV) Now the woman was a Gentile, of Syrophoenician origin. She begged him to cast the demon out of her daughter.
> (Mark 7:27 NRSV) He said to her, "Let the children be fed first, for it is not fair to take the children?s food and throw it to the dogs."
> --------------------
> 2: Sending someone important to you to be raped.
> (Judg 19:22 NRSV) While they were enjoying themselves, the men of the city, a perverse lot, surrounded the house, and started pounding on the door. They said to the old man, the master of the house, "Bring out the man who came into your house, so that we may have intercourse with him."
> (Judg 19:24 NRSV) (The old man) Here are my virgin daughter and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do whatever you want to them; but against this man do not
> do such a vile thing."
> (Judg 19:25 NRSV) ? So the man seized his concubine, and put her out to them. They wantonly raped her, and abused her all through the night until the morning. And as the dawn began
> to break, they let her go.
> --------------------
> 3: Violence against children.
> (Judg 21:10 NRSV) So the congregation sent twelve thousand soldiers there and commanded them, "Go, put the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead to the sword, including the women and the little ones.
> --------------------
> 4: Inequality of women.
> (1 Tim 2:9-12 NRSV) also that the women should dress themselves modestly and decently in suitable clothing, not with their hair braided, or with gold, pearls, or expensive clothes, ?
> Let a woman learn in silence with full submission.
> I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent.
> --------------------
> 5: Murder and theft to pay off a debt.
> (Judg 14:19 KJV) And the spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he went down to Ashkelon, and slew thirty men of them, and took their spoil, and gave change of garments unto them which expounded the riddle?
> Only five things from the Bible and now just one that is mentioned nowhere in the Bible:
> Pedophilia. Bad?
> Do we also, agree, then on just 6 things that are bad?
> --
> "However many holy words you read, however many you speak,
> what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them?"
> [Buddha]
> You are still blatantly refusing to answer my questions, and now you
> try to divert the discussion into an irrelevant assessment of my own
> view. If you will not my questions, I will not answer yours.
Well, Grasshopper, there are many ways to answer a question and the best way is to begin with understanding common ground first. When we know what we share then we can decide whether there are really any differences and, if so, why.
So, I actually am answering your question. So far you and I agree completely on what is good. I want to see if we agree on what is bad. Then we can discuss why. If you are afraid of where this may lead I fully understand your reticence.
Have a good evening.
-- "However many holy words you read, however many you speak,
what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them?"
[Buddha]
> Unfortunately, I don't believe you have any right to agree with me on
> what is *good* on an atheistic worldview. Furthermore you haven't
> given me any indication that you can at all account for the reality of
> good and evil which you are assuming here. Before we go any further,
> you need to defend your original assertion, which I have asked you to
> do many times. I will not engage with you if you continue to refuse to
> defend your assumptions about good and evil.
Two different things so a second reply.
Why do you assume that my 'world-view' is atheistic?
Be patient, I believe that your beliefs teach you that it is a virtue.
-- "However many holy words you read, however many you speak,
what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them?"
[Buddha]
On Nov 4, 11:35 am, Diana Wilson <dwilso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When I figured out that god didn't exist....and declared myself an
> Atheist...nothing happened. I did not rape my dog, kill my little brother,
> start robbing banks....or go insane. I am the very same person...only now I
> live in a state of reality and that makes me very very happy.
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 8:32 PM, A Query <djb...@uow.edu.au> wrote:
> > Why do you keep avoiding my question?
> > On Nov 4, 11:54 am, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > [A Query]
> > > Not at all. I was simply questioning your use of the terms *good* and
> > > *evil* and asking you to give an account of the foundation of these
> > > terms on your worldview.
> > > Do you agree that they are good or do you disagree?
> > > --
> > > "However many holy words you read, however many you speak,
> > > what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them?"
> > > [Buddha]
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-christianity+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit y%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
On Nov 3, 5:35 pm, Diana Wilson <dwilso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When I figured out that god didn't exist....and declared myself an
> Atheist...nothing happened. I did not rape my dog, kill my little brother,
> start robbing banks....or go insane. I am the very same person...only now I
> live in a state of reality and that makes me very very happy.
LL: Too bad more theists can't get themselves over that particular
"hump." It shows how indoctrination keeps the brain from developing.
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 8:32 PM, A Query <djb...@uow.edu.au> wrote:
> > Why do you keep avoiding my question?
> > On Nov 4, 11:54 am, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > [A Query]
> > > Not at all. I was simply questioning your use of the terms *good* and
> > > *evil* and asking you to give an account of the foundation of these
> > > terms on your worldview.
> > > Do you agree that they are good or do you disagree?
> > > --
> > > "However many holy words you read, however many you speak,
> > > what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them?"
> > > [Buddha]
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-christianity+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit y%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
On Nov 3, 5:50 pm, A Query <djb...@uow.edu.au> wrote:
> Of course nothing happened. If it did, it would mean your morality was
> contingent on you *believing* in God. But this is obviously absurd.
> There are many people who don't believe in God who do what is
> biblically good. Rather, I would suggest that morality is contingent
> on the existence of God; that is, if objective moral values exist,
> then God exists. Your morality has nothing to do with whether you
> *believe* that God exists or not, but with whether God really does
> exist.
LL: How would anyone know? Since we can't know, the existence or non-
existence of any god has absolutely no effect on humans.
> On Nov 4, 12:35 pm, Diana Wilson <dwilso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > When I figured out that god didn't exist....and declared myself an
> > Atheist...nothing happened. I did not rape my dog, kill my little brother,
> > start robbing banks....or go insane. I am the very same person...only now I
> > live in a state of reality and that makes me very very happy.
> > On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 8:32 PM, A Query <djb...@uow.edu.au> wrote:
> > > Why do you keep avoiding my question?
> > > On Nov 4, 11:54 am, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > [A Query]
> > > > Not at all. I was simply questioning your use of the terms *good* and
> > > > *evil* and asking you to give an account of the foundation of these
> > > > terms on your worldview.
> > > > Do you agree that they are good or do you disagree?
> > > > --
> > > > "However many holy words you read, however many you speak,
> > > > what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them?"
> > > > [Buddha]
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > > To post to this group, send email to
> > > atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > > atheism-vs-christianity+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit y%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
> > > .
> > > For more options, visit this group at
> > >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
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