On Oct 30, 1:36 pm, lauren <lauren...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Trance Gemini.
> You comments made me think.
Yes!!! :)
>I realise it is dangerous...
Why would you say that? It's not the thinking that ever got anyone
into any trouble, it was the actions they took in regards to those
thoughts.. And they most likely didn't complete the thinking part
before they took said actions. If they had, they would have realized
it wasn't a good idea to act on them. ( we humans can be a little
impulsive, no?) IMO critical thought is one of our most powerful
assets as human beings. Without it our societies and technology
wouldn't be where where it is today. Impressive to us and unthinkable
to those that preceded, but not anywhere near where it potentially
could be if more of us used our brains and employed critical thinking.
>.... but I have this brain thing in my head that keeps thinking all the time. Sometimes I wish I could make it stop.
I can totally relate. But I say, the more the better. Embrace it,
harness it. When you stop thinking, you're in trouble. ;)
On Oct 30, 3:27 pm, lauren <lauren...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was thinking about my last post and I want to share this with you.
> I know you are going to laugh. What the heck? It’s okay. Go ahead.
> Laugh.
Why should I laugh. Maybe I've been there before.
> You want to know what is scary to me about being an atheist? Its about
> when I’m dead. When you die you’re soooooo dead! You know? Dead like a
> donkey. You just lay there in the ground rotting away and the worms
> eat you up until only your bare bones are left.
The body is dead. I don't want to feed the worms, so I'm
going to be cremated.
> When I die I have this picture in my mind of leaving my body
> gracefully. It’s not me there in the ground. It’s just my body. And
> after all it was only temporary. No big deal. The ‘I’ am still around.
> That’s exciting!
Okay, so you prefer to see the continuation of existence, or as
some say, the continuation of consciousness.
> I have read a lot about these NDE’s. People say they had this
> experience of coming out of their bodies and having this feeling of
> absolute release. Don’t you think it is wonderful?
The thought is comforting, but is it real?
> I have this relationship with my heavenly Father. I talk to Him. I
> complain to Him. I ask Him things. You know, just like I used to do to
> with my dad. Sometimes he gives me what I want. Sometimes He doesn’t.
> Just like my dad used to do. He has this sort of obligation to look
> out for me and I trust Him.
I'd rather think of my actual Dad in this manner - he's passed on.
> When I do something I’m proud of (read ‘something good’) I get this
> sense of serving a higher purpose. That’s rewarding. I like feeling
> like that.
That's nice, but it's not an objective opinion, it's a subjective one.
> Whether I have been indoctrinated or not is not that important to me.
> I just don’t think I want to give all this up. This opium of the
> masses thing, you know. Religion. I’m all for it.
I have met people who have the "new age bent", but who have no
religion whatsoever. To me, religion is when you follow a dogma,
when you follow the "written word" like the Bible. That's religion.
I actually don't see what a possible "after life" has anything to
do with a God.
> So what if I am wrong. No harm done. In any case I’ll never know
> whether I was wrong, will I? On the other hand, if I was right, oh boy
> …
You are entitled to think the way you do. The only thing I think you,
or I, or anyone else is not entitled to do, is to push their "belief
system" onto others and put pressure on them to "convert" to
their belief system. Oh, I also don't believe that people should hurt
or kill others to "prove their belief is the right one".
The one thing I have found in conversing with other atheists, is
that they think. They have thought about the good, the bad, the
ugly, and they have come to their position, not on belief, but on
facts. I have many friends who believe in metaphysics, and
also new agers. Some are very sensible, apparently level
headed individuals. Some, are waay over the top, and are just
as bad as religious nutters. So, the field is wide open.
My perception of you is that you are not scared of being an
atheist. You are scared of not believing in a choice you have
made...ie the possibility of life after death.
Remember, the word atheist is one who does not believe
in a God. On the basis that "as above" "so below" there
will be no God, even if there is an afterlife. Also, NDEs are
just that, they are NEAR, not actual death, so the brain has
not died...... it has still been at work.
On Oct 30, 6:56 pm, Dead Kennedy <potentateoflo...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
> i cant remember who first said it but
> death doesnt bother me, ive been dead for 14 billion years and it
> caused no inconvenience. (para)
I've heard similar thoughts along the lines of: You have been in
nonexistence for many billions of years before and we be in
nonexistence for many billions of years after. You are just taking a
temporary vacation from nonexistence at the moment. Enjoy your
vacation while it lasts.
On Oct 31, 4:36 am, lauren <lauren...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Trance Gemini.
> You comments made me think. I realise it is dangerous, but I have this
> brain thing in my head that keeps thinking all the time. Sometimes I
> wish I could make it stop.
> Humans are set apart from all other forms of life on earth. Maybe it
> is because there is another dimension to us. We are not only brain. We
> have emotions as well. I know they may be unreliable, but sometimes
> they are a better guide than brainpower. Especially in women. Some men
> lack this to a large extent and that is why they are so comfortable on
> brain power only. (I think women are a notch up on men in the
> evolution chain
Do you think maybe expressing this view involves you in some kind of
performative contradiction, because if a man said "I think men are a
notch up on women in the evolution chain", maybe you'd take this as
confirming evidence of your view that women are more developed on the
evolutionary scale (whatever that means).
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 1:36 PM, lauren <lauren...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Trance Gemini.
> Simon dealt with this far better than I could so I'll just leave this one
> and let you work on Simon's response. :-)
> > I realise I’m starting out on a very controversial premise, but I have
> > to bring in something from the Bible. We read that God breathed life
> > into us. He did not do that with any of the other creatures. Maybe,
> > just maybe, what is meant by breathing life is breathing spirituality
> > into us, a part of Him. We have this spirituality, godliness, in us.
> > And this godliness in us reaches out to God from whence it came. I can
> > think of a thousand counter arguments, but this means something to me.
> > Yes, I have to be loyal to my God. He is tolerant enough to embrace
> > even the ones who do not worship Him. He loves the world, not just
> > only Christians.
> Bare assertion fallacy Lauren. You need to prove a God exists before you can
> advocate this to us.
> Just to believe in your God is a different matter.
> However, if you want to present that case to a debating group then you will
> need some foundation for it.
> At the time of writing my post I did not do it on the basis of a debate. I merely stated my convictions. I am well aware that the word 'belief' is a total no no in this group, yet I wanted to share my reasoning. I have stated before in one of my previous postings that in my reasoning I am making allowance for logic. To me evidence is not just hard, cold facts. That is why I allow for the added dimension of emotions. My point of departure is not one of 'proof first'. That would make it impossible. Fact: I can not prove God. I am making allowance for the possibility that He may exist. Maybe there is another set of rules when it comes to proving this kind of thing. Maybe we limit ourselves by insisting on proof beyond a reasonable doubt. God, being what He is, can not fit into a test tube.
> > You say you are sometimes talking to your dad. Isn’t there a parallel
> > in there somewhere? Subconsciously you are reaching out to from whence
> > you came. And you find comfort in that. I find comfort in thinking
> > about and talking to my spiritual dad. Biscuit tin? Coffin? What is
> > the difference?
> True. The parallel is that you and I are doing the same thing for the same
> reason.
> The difference is that you are talking to an imaginary friend whose guidance
> is in the form of a 2000 year old obedience manual written for a people long
> gone, and I'm talking to someone who lived within recent history, provided
> me with guidance in real life and then passed away.
> > I know you will scoff at the idea,
> Who me? Perish the thought! ;-)
> > but if we were born with a subconscious touch of spirituality,
> You will have prove this is the case first. There doesn't appear to be any
> evidence that I'm aware of to support this claim.
> > which responds to indoctrination,
> > then that is the natural condition. Just as your mother had to nurture
> > you, she had to nurture (indoctrinate) you emotionally
> Yes mothers do this.
> > / spiritually
> In order to claim mothers do this you have to demonstrate that spirituality
> exists and define what it is.
> > as in so many other aspects of your personality. Then, afterwards you
> > need your brain to convince you that there is no god,
> Children don't believe in gods until they are indoctrinated into believing
> in them.
> Many atheist children raised in atheist families can attest to that.
> I didn't understand what a god was or spirituality or any of that stuff, as
> a child.
> And when people talked about it, it just sounded kind of weird to me.
> Why was it weird? Did you not believe in fairies? Surely, that wasn't weird?
> Today I now understand that it's pretty much anything the god-believer and
> their doctrine wants it to be.
> > in whatever
> > form. So, I humbly think that atheism is a pure intellectual, brain
> > thing. The keener your brain, the stronger your conviction. Like Rapp.
> > He had to figure it out. Now that he has convinced himself he is a top
> > rank atheist.
> Rapp had to do that because he was indoctrinated as a child.
> I never had to do that because I wasn't indoctrinated as a child.
> Weren't you perhaps indoctrinated into believing there is no god. Surely you did not believe in a god as your convictions were set.
> > Lol about old Thor. I just hope he and God are buddies by now. Then,
> > I’m sure he won’t mind so much.
> Haha. You hope.
> And that was Pascal's Wager you should look up, not Occam's Razor.
Will do
> My mistake.
I find it confusing to reply with all the text in between. Is there a
way, besides deleting to get the text you dont want to reply to out of
the way?
There, exactly my problem! I replied at length to your comment in
between all that text and now it is missing. All that remained was my
postscript in the end.
On Oct 31, 5:45 am, lauren <lauren...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 30, 8:16 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 1:36 PM, lauren <lauren...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Trance Gemini.
> > Simon dealt with this far better than I could so I'll just leave this one
> > and let you work on Simon's response. :-)
> > > I realise I’m starting out on a very controversial premise, but I have
> > > to bring in something from the Bible. We read that God breathed life
> > > into us. He did not do that with any of the other creatures. Maybe,
> > > just maybe, what is meant by breathing life is breathing spirituality
> > > into us, a part of Him. We have this spirituality, godliness, in us.
> > > And this godliness in us reaches out to God from whence it came. I can
> > > think of a thousand counter arguments, but this means something to me.
> > > Yes, I have to be loyal to my God. He is tolerant enough to embrace
> > > even the ones who do not worship Him. He loves the world, not just
> > > only Christians.
> > Bare assertion fallacy Lauren. You need to prove a God exists before you can
> > advocate this to us.
> > Just to believe in your God is a different matter.
> > However, if you want to present that case to a debating group then you will
> > need some foundation for it.
> > At the time of writing my post I did not do it on the basis of a debate. I merely stated my convictions. I am well aware that the word 'belief' is a total no no in this group, yet I wanted to share my reasoning. I have stated before in one of my previous postings that in my reasoning I am making allowance for logic. To me evidence is not just hard, cold facts. That is why I allow for the added dimension of emotions. My point of departure is not one of 'proof first'. That would make it impossible. Fact: I can not prove God. I am making allowance for the possibility that He may exist. Maybe there is another set of rules when it comes to proving this kind of thing. Maybe we limit ourselves by insisting on proof beyond a reasonable doubt. God, being what He is, can not fit into a test tube.
> > > You say you are sometimes talking to your dad. Isn’t there a parallel
> > > in there somewhere? Subconsciously you are reaching out to from whence
> > > you came. And you find comfort in that. I find comfort in thinking
> > > about and talking to my spiritual dad. Biscuit tin? Coffin? What is
> > > the difference?
> > True. The parallel is that you and I are doing the same thing for the same
> > reason.
> > The difference is that you are talking to an imaginary friend whose guidance
> > is in the form of a 2000 year old obedience manual written for a people long
> > gone, and I'm talking to someone who lived within recent history, provided
> > me with guidance in real life and then passed away.
> > > I know you will scoff at the idea,
> > Who me? Perish the thought! ;-)
> > > but if we were born with a subconscious touch of spirituality,
> > You will have prove this is the case first. There doesn't appear to be any
> > evidence that I'm aware of to support this claim.
> > > which responds to indoctrination,
> > > then that is the natural condition. Just as your mother had to nurture
> > > you, she had to nurture (indoctrinate) you emotionally
> > Yes mothers do this.
> > > / spiritually
> > In order to claim mothers do this you have to demonstrate that spirituality
> > exists and define what it is.
> > > as in so many other aspects of your personality. Then, afterwards you
> > > need your brain to convince you that there is no god,
> > Children don't believe in gods until they are indoctrinated into believing
> > in them.
> > Many atheist children raised in atheist families can attest to that.
> > I didn't understand what a god was or spirituality or any of that stuff, as
> > a child.
> > And when people talked about it, it just sounded kind of weird to me.
> > Why was it weird? Did you not believe in fairies? Surely, that wasn't weird?
> > Today I now understand that it's pretty much anything the god-believer and
> > their doctrine wants it to be.
> > > in whatever
> > > form. So, I humbly think that atheism is a pure intellectual, brain
> > > thing. The keener your brain, the stronger your conviction. Like Rapp.
> > > He had to figure it out. Now that he has convinced himself he is a top
> > > rank atheist.
> > Rapp had to do that because he was indoctrinated as a child.
> > I never had to do that because I wasn't indoctrinated as a child.
> > Weren't you perhaps indoctrinated into believing there is no god. Surely you did not believe in a god as your convictions were set.
> > > Lol about old Thor. I just hope he and God are buddies by now. Then,
> > > I’m sure he won’t mind so much.
> > Haha. You hope.
> > And that was Pascal's Wager you should look up, not Occam's Razor.
> Will do
> > My mistake.
> I find it confusing to reply with all the text in between. Is there a
> way, besides deleting to get the text you dont want to reply to out of
> the way?
> > > On Oct 30, 2:19 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 31, 3:21 am, Rupert <rupertmccal...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Oct 30, 6:56 pm, Dead Kennedy <potentateoflo...@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
> > i cant remember who first said it but
> > death doesnt bother me, ive been dead for 14 billion years and it
> > caused no inconvenience. (para)
> I've heard similar thoughts along the lines of: You have been in
> nonexistence for many billions of years before and we be in
> nonexistence for many billions of years after. You are just taking a
> temporary vacation from nonexistence at the moment. Enjoy your
> vacation while it lasts.
That is where our views part. I am of the opinion that I came into
existence a number of years ago. Before that I was only in the
planning department. Now that I am, I am for ever. I shall not be
reverting to non existence. Just my view ;-)
On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 11:45 PM, lauren <lauren...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 30, 8:16 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 1:36 PM, lauren <lauren...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Trance Gemini.
> > Simon dealt with this far better than I could so I'll just leave this one
> > and let you work on Simon's response. :-)
> > > I realise I’m starting out on a very controversial premise, but I have
> > > to bring in something from the Bible. We read that God breathed life
> > > into us. He did not do that with any of the other creatures. Maybe,
> > > just maybe, what is meant by breathing life is breathing spirituality
> > > into us, a part of Him. We have this spirituality, godliness, in us.
> > > And this godliness in us reaches out to God from whence it came. I can
> > > think of a thousand counter arguments, but this means something to me.
> > > Yes, I have to be loyal to my God. He is tolerant enough to embrace
> > > even the ones who do not worship Him. He loves the world, not just
> > > only Christians.
> > Bare assertion fallacy Lauren. You need to prove a God exists before you
> can
> > advocate this to us.
> > Just to believe in your God is a different matter.
> > However, if you want to present that case to a debating group then you
> will
> > need some foundation for it.
Lauren said:
> At the time of writing my post I did not do it on the basis of a debate. I
> merely stated my convictions. I am well aware that the word 'belief' is a
> total no no in this group, yet I wanted to share my reasoning. I have stated
> before in one of my previous postings that in my reasoning I am making
> allowance for logic.
Okay. But where is the reasoning?
You're stating that you believe it, fair enough.
However, it's an unsupported assertion. That's not to say that you can't say
you believe. You can, since belief doesn't require any support.
I can believe that I have a purple fairy sitting on my shoulder all day long
talking to me.
However, if I come to AvC and tell people that then they are going to ask me
to provide evidence to support that belief, to prove that purple fairies
exist, to prove one is sitting on my shoulder, and that it talks to me.
The reality is that we atheists can falsify the Abrahamic God and
demonstrate that it can't exist and have done so many times on this site.
However, if we were to dispense with the "God exists" part just for the sake
of argument, acknowledging the fact that you can't prove a God exists, you
still continue to make further assertions based on this premise.
Now you state that God breathed life into us and you claim that this life is
"spirituality" and that "We have this spirituality, godliness, in us"
You now need to define "spirituality", demonstrate that it exists and
demonstrate that it is a human property.
You also need to explain how this "spirit" differs from animals.
Then you go on further to not only define properties of this god that you
have not demonstrated exists and make claims about what this god believes:
Lauren said:
"Yes, I have to be loyal to my God. He is tolerant enough to embrace even
the ones who do not worship Him. He loves the world, not just only
Christians."
How do you know you have to be loyal to this god?
How do you know he's tolerant and that he loves the world not just
Christians?
All of this amounts to bare unsupported assertions based on personal claims
which are subjective and can't be supported with any evidence.
To me evidence is not just hard, cold facts.
Evidence is cold, hard facts.
Faith is belief without evidence.
> That is why I allow for the added dimension of emotions.
Evidence doesn't include the "dimension of emotions" when you are asserting
that something exists and it has properties and demands.
> My point of departure is not one of 'proof first'. That would make it
> impossible. Fact: I can not prove God. I am making allowance for the
> possibility that He may exist.
If that was all you were doing that would be fine. But you go further than
that.
You attribute properties to him like love.
You attribute motivations to him like he requires loyalty.
On what basis are you defining this god?
> Maybe there is another set of rules when it comes to proving this kind of
> thing. Maybe we limit ourselves by insisting on proof beyond a reasonable
> doubt.
I'll take any proof that is reasonable.
> God, being what He is, can not fit into a test tube.
Then how can you know that this god is loving and requires loyalty?
> > > You say you are sometimes talking to your dad. Isn’t there a parallel
> > > in there somewhere? Subconsciously you are reaching out to from whence
> > > you came. And you find comfort in that. I find comfort in thinking
> > > about and talking to my spiritual dad. Biscuit tin? Coffin? What is
> > > the difference?
> > True. The parallel is that you and I are doing the same thing for the
> same
> > reason.
> > The difference is that you are talking to an imaginary friend whose
> guidance
> > is in the form of a 2000 year old obedience manual written for a people
> long
> > gone, and I'm talking to someone who lived within recent history,
> provided
> > me with guidance in real life and then passed away.
> > > I know you will scoff at the idea,
> > Who me? Perish the thought! ;-)
> > > but if we were born with a subconscious touch of spirituality,
> > You will have prove this is the case first. There doesn't appear to be
> any
> > evidence that I'm aware of to support this claim.
> > > which responds to indoctrination,
> > > then that is the natural condition. Just as your mother had to nurture
> > > you, she had to nurture (indoctrinate) you emotionally
> > Yes mothers do this.
> > > / spiritually
> > In order to claim mothers do this you have to demonstrate that
> spirituality
> > exists and define what it is.
> > > as in so many other aspects of your personality. Then, afterwards you
> > > need your brain to convince you that there is no god,
> > Children don't believe in gods until they are indoctrinated into
> believing
> > in them.
> > Many atheist children raised in atheist families can attest to that.
> > I didn't understand what a god was or spirituality or any of that stuff,
> as
> > a child.
> > And when people talked about it, it just sounded kind of weird to me.
> > Why was it weird? Did you not believe in fairies? Surely, that wasn't
> weird?
> > Today I now understand that it's pretty much anything the god-believer
> and
> > their doctrine wants it to be.
> > > in whatever
> > > form. So, I humbly think that atheism is a pure intellectual, brain
> > > thing. The keener your brain, the stronger your conviction. Like Rapp.
> > > He had to figure it out. Now that he has convinced himself he is a top
> > > rank atheist.
> > Rapp had to do that because he was indoctrinated as a child.
> > I never had to do that because I wasn't indoctrinated as a child.
> Weren't you perhaps indoctrinated into believing there is no god. Surely
> you did not believe in a god as your convictions were set.
No. There was no issue in my home. I didn't know what a god was until I
heard other kids talking about it.
IOW I wasn't even aware of the concept until I met indoctrinated children.
> > > Lol about old Thor. I just hope he and God are buddies by now. Then,
> > > I’m sure he won’t mind so much.
> > Haha. You hope.
> > And that was Pascal's Wager you should look up, not Occam's Razor.
> Will do
> > My mistake.
> I find it confusing to reply with all the text in between. Is there a
> way, besides deleting to get the text you dont want to reply to out of
> the way?
You'll figure it out with a little practice. Just leave a couple of lines
between the comments you're responding to.
> > > On Oct 30, 2:19 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > --
> > High Priestess of Ribbonology
> > God Is A Ribbon!
> > All Hail The Great Ribbon In The Skyhttp://
> science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2009/15oct_ibex.htm?list1303103
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> To post to this group, send email to
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This morning early I started out to write you a personal letter trying
to explain my 'logic' behind my 'beliefs'. Then, halfway through I
stopped. I asked myself what it was I was trying to achieve. We are at
the far ends of the continuum on this issue. Your reply confirmed
this. You insist on proof. I have none. Should I comply with all the
requirements would take a thesis. I can do it, but knowing that I
shall not be able to elicit some understanding for my views it will
equally not serve any purpose. I thank you for not ridiculing me.
Maybe AvC is not the forum to state your views when you are a
Christian. I am not into atheist bashing. I was not aware (very naive
of me) that I had to convince anybody. I merely wanted to share my
beliefs. I hoped ... I don't really know what I hoped for. I have no
argument with your conviction that there is no god. I have my own
personal reasons why I have faith in there being a God. None of them
will fit into a test tube. They will only fit my faith tube. I applied
' my logic' to arrive at them. I had to make concessions to arrive at
some of them. I discarded a lot of what other C's hold on to as
infallible. As a matter of fact I have very little of the Bible left.
I hold on to only what is reasonable and logically justifiable in my
frame of reference.
I am very sad at the moment because I grew fond of you guys. I
sometimes smiled at your antics, your meanness and I learned a lot.
Quite a lot. I agree and have accepted with a lot of issues that was
pointed out to me. You may not believe it, but a lot of what I gained
strengthened my faith.
That's it for now.
On Oct 31, 11:43 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 31, 3:21 am, Rupert <rupertmccal...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Oct 30, 6:56 pm, Dead Kennedy <potentateoflo...@googlemail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > i cant remember who first said it but
>> > death doesnt bother me, ive been dead for 14 billion years and it
>> > caused no inconvenience. (para)
>> I've heard similar thoughts along the lines of: You have been in
>> nonexistence for many billions of years before and we be in
>> nonexistence for many billions of years after. You are just taking a
>> temporary vacation from nonexistence at the moment. Enjoy your
>> vacation while it lasts.
> That is where our views part. I am of the opinion that I came into
> existence a number of years ago. Before that I was only in the
> planning department. Now that I am, I am for ever. I shall not be
> reverting to non existence. Just my view ;-)
Just your hope.
Faith-based belief is mostly desire.
-- "Atheism is the natural condition of the Universe into which we are
all born and where we innocently live unless cerebrally raped by
indoctrination into some 'faith' by intellectually-challenged
persuaders who prey mostly on children. People’s gods exist only
as fictions inside their heads."
[Dr. Terence Meaden]
On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 7:16 AM, lauren <lauren...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This morning early I started out to write you a personal letter trying
> to explain my 'logic' behind my 'beliefs'. Then, halfway through I
> stopped. I asked myself what it was I was trying to achieve. We are at
> the far ends of the continuum on this issue. Your reply confirmed
> this. You insist on proof. I have none. Should I comply with all the
> requirements would take a thesis. I can do it, but knowing that I
> shall not be able to elicit some understanding for my views it will
> equally not serve any purpose. I thank you for not ridiculing me.
> Maybe AvC is not the forum to state your views when you are a
> Christian.
AvC is a Debating Forum for Christians and Atheists so when Christians come
here they do debate and support their positions as best they can.
We have a lot of threads where that is going on.
I had a very long and very interesting debate with a Christian recently
named JT.
And there are many other such debates going on.
It hones their skills and ours.
However, it may not be the right Forum for you. That would be up to you to
decide.
Not everyone wants to defend their beliefs in the way that would be expected
to on a Debating Forum and it's not an easy task.
That's why I've tried to help by making a few suggestions.
> I am not into atheist bashing.
I know you're not and I appreciate that. You're quite decent that way.
> I was not aware (very naive
> of me) that I had to convince anybody. I merely wanted to share my
> beliefs. I hoped ... I don't really know what I hoped for. I have no
> argument with your conviction that there is no god. I have my own
> personal reasons why I have faith in there being a God. None of them
> will fit into a test tube. They will only fit my faith tube. I applied
> ' my logic' to arrive at them.
In this Debating Forum, some are better than others at applying formal
Logical Constructs to our arguments.
Rapp, Dev and Drafterman are exceptionally good at it and I'm okay (not the
best) at it but take correction from time to time when my fellow atheists
note an error and are willing to point it out.
Most of the theists here are also aware of these and other Logical
Constructs which they also try to apply when Debating.
That tends to be what we look for and that's why people will point out
Logical Fallacies on both sides.
I had to make concessions to arrive at
> some of them. I discarded a lot of what other C's hold on to as
> infallible. As a matter of fact I have very little of the Bible left.
> I hold on to only what is reasonable and logically justifiable in my
> frame of reference.
Understood. I'm just explaining that what people do in real life or even in
a Discussion Group is not the same as what is expected in a Debating Forum.
I am very sad at the moment because I grew fond of you guys.
No... don't be. Just think about what I've said.
> I sometimes smiled at your antics, your meanness and I learned a lot.
Okay. Lol.
> Quite a lot. I agree and have accepted with a lot of issues that was
> pointed out to me. You may not believe it, but a lot of what I gained
> strengthened my faith.
> That's it for now.
I believe it.
Don't get discouraged.
This Forum is just a little different from most and may not be the right one
for you.
We challenge each other and it has little to do with whether we like each or
not.
I like OM, JT, and SSB but when we debate ... we debate and we're honest
about our opinions.
I like you too and when I debate with you, I'm just being honest in the same
way I am with OM, JT and SSB.
> On Oct 31, 11:43 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 11:45 PM, lauren <lauren...@gmail.com> wrote:
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> To post to this group, send email to
> atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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> .
> For more options, visit this group at
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> I was thinking about my last post and I want to share this with you.
> I know you are going to laugh. What the heck? It’s okay. Go ahead.
> Laugh.
> You want to know what is scary to me about being an atheist? Its about
> when I’m dead. When you die you’re soooooo dead! You know? Dead like a
> donkey. You just lay there in the ground rotting away and the worms
> eat you up until only your bare bones are left.
> When I die I have this picture in my mind of leaving my body
> gracefully. It’s not me there in the ground. It’s just my body. And
> after all it was only temporary. No big deal. The ‘I’ am still around.
> That’s exciting!
> I have read a lot about these NDE’s. People say they had this
> experience of coming out of their bodies and having this feeling of
> absolute release. Don’t you think it is wonderful?
> I have this relationship with my heavenly Father. I talk to Him. I
> complain to Him. I ask Him things. You know, just like I used to do to
> with my dad. Sometimes he gives me what I want. Sometimes He doesn’t.
> Just like my dad used to do. He has this sort of obligation to look
> out for me and I trust Him.
> When I do something I’m proud of (read ‘something good’) I get this
> sense of serving a higher purpose. That’s rewarding. I like feeling
> like that.
> Whether I have been indoctrinated or not is not that important to me.
> I just don’t think I want to give all this up. This opium of the
> masses thing, you know. Religion. I’m all for it.
> So what if I am wrong. No harm done. In any case I’ll never know
> whether I was wrong, will I? On the other hand, if I was right, oh boy
> …
Can you imagine how much worse heaven would be?
Existing in company with all those fucking Christians singing songs
and happy clapping - can you IMAGINE AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
> Do you believe in Hell? Wouldn't it be comforting to think that death
> means non-existence, so no chance of ending up in Hell?
> On Oct 30, 12:27 am, lauren <lauren...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I was thinking about my last post and I want to share this with you.
> > I know you are going to laugh. What the heck? It’s okay. Go ahead.
> > Laugh.
> > You want to know what is scary to me about being an atheist? Its about
> > when I’m dead. When you die you’re soooooo dead! You know? Dead like a
> > donkey. You just lay there in the ground rotting away and the worms
> > eat you up until only your bare bones are left.
> > When I die I have this picture in my mind of leaving my body
> > gracefully. It’s not me there in the ground. It’s just my body. And
> > after all it was only temporary. No big deal. The ‘I’ am still around.
> > That’s exciting!
> > I have read a lot about these NDE’s. People say they had this
> > experience of coming out of their bodies and having this feeling of
> > absolute release. Don’t you think it is wonderful?
> > I have this relationship with my heavenly Father. I talk to Him. I
> > complain to Him. I ask Him things. You know, just like I used to do to
> > with my dad. Sometimes he gives me what I want. Sometimes He doesn’t.
> > Just like my dad used to do. He has this sort of obligation to look
> > out for me and I trust Him.
> > When I do something I’m proud of (read ‘something good’) I get this
> > sense of serving a higher purpose. That’s rewarding. I like feeling
> > like that.
> > Whether I have been indoctrinated or not is not that important to me.
> > I just don’t think I want to give all this up. This opium of the
> > masses thing, you know. Religion. I’m all for it.
> > So what if I am wrong. No harm done. In any case I’ll never know
> > whether I was wrong, will I? On the other hand, if I was right, oh boy
> > …
> Can you imagine how much worse heaven would be?
> Existing in company with all those fucking Christians singing songs
> and happy clapping - can you IMAGINE AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
> On Nov 2, 6:10 pm, Walt <wka...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Do you believe in Hell? Wouldn't it be comforting to think that death
> > means non-existence, so no chance of ending up in Hell?
> > On Oct 30, 12:27 am, lauren <lauren...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I was thinking about my last post and I want to share this with you.
> > > I know you are going to laugh. What the heck? It’s okay. Go ahead.
> > > Laugh.
> > > You want to know what is scary to me about being an atheist? Its about
> > > when I’m dead. When you die you’re soooooo dead! You know? Dead like a
> > > donkey. You just lay there in the ground rotting away and the worms
> > > eat you up until only your bare bones are left.
> > > When I die I have this picture in my mind of leaving my body
> > > gracefully. It’s not me there in the ground. It’s just my body. And
> > > after all it was only temporary. No big deal. The ‘I’ am still around.
> > > That’s exciting!
> > > I have read a lot about these NDE’s. People say they had this
> > > experience of coming out of their bodies and having this feeling of
> > > absolute release. Don’t you think it is wonderful?
> > > I have this relationship with my heavenly Father. I talk to Him. I
> > > complain to Him. I ask Him things. You know, just like I used to do to
> > > with my dad. Sometimes he gives me what I want. Sometimes He doesn’t.
> > > Just like my dad used to do. He has this sort of obligation to look
> > > out for me and I trust Him.
> > > When I do something I’m proud of (read ‘something good’) I get this
> > > sense of serving a higher purpose. That’s rewarding. I like feeling
> > > like that.
> > > Whether I have been indoctrinated or not is not that important to me.
> > > I just don’t think I want to give all this up. This opium of the
> > > masses thing, you know. Religion. I’m all for it.
> > > So what if I am wrong. No harm done. In any case I’ll never know
> > > whether I was wrong, will I? On the other hand, if I was right, oh boy
> > > …
> On Nov 2, 5:05 pm, chazwin <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Can you imagine how much worse heaven would be?
> > Existing in company with all those fucking Christians singing songs
> > and happy clapping - can you IMAGINE AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
> > On Nov 2, 6:10 pm, Walt <wka...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Do you believe in Hell? Wouldn't it be comforting to think that death
> > > means non-existence, so no chance of ending up in Hell?
> > > On Oct 30, 12:27 am, lauren <lauren...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I was thinking about my last post and I want to share this with you.
> > > > I know you are going to laugh. What the heck? It’s okay. Go ahead.
> > > > Laugh.
> > > > You want to know what is scary to me about being an atheist? Its about
> > > > when I’m dead. When you die you’re soooooo dead! You know? Dead like a
> > > > donkey. You just lay there in the ground rotting away and the worms
> > > > eat you up until only your bare bones are left.
> > > > When I die I have this picture in my mind of leaving my body
> > > > gracefully. It’s not me there in the ground. It’s just my body. And
> > > > after all it was only temporary. No big deal. The ‘I’ am still around.
> > > > That’s exciting!
> > > > I have read a lot about these NDE’s. People say they had this
> > > > experience of coming out of their bodies and having this feeling of
> > > > absolute release. Don’t you think it is wonderful?
> > > > I have this relationship with my heavenly Father. I talk to Him. I
> > > > complain to Him. I ask Him things. You know, just like I used to do to
> > > > with my dad. Sometimes he gives me what I want. Sometimes He doesn’t.
> > > > Just like my dad used to do. He has this sort of obligation to look
> > > > out for me and I trust Him.
> > > > When I do something I’m proud of (read ‘something good’) I get this
> > > > sense of serving a higher purpose. That’s rewarding. I like feeling
> > > > like that.
> > > > Whether I have been indoctrinated or not is not that important to me.
> > > > I just don’t think I want to give all this up. This opium of the
> > > > masses thing, you know. Religion. I’m all for it.
> > > > So what if I am wrong. No harm done. In any case I’ll never know
> > > > whether I was wrong, will I? On the other hand, if I was right, oh boy
> > > > …
> On Nov 2, 10:45 pm, Walt <wka...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Could work with the right drugs.
> Is there a thriving drugs market in heaven?
> > On Nov 2, 5:05 pm, chazwin <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Can you imagine how much worse heaven would be?
> > > Existing in company with all those fucking Christians singing songs
> > > and happy clapping - can you IMAGINE AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
> > > On Nov 2, 6:10 pm, Walt <wka...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > Do you believe in Hell? Wouldn't it be comforting to think that death
> > > > means non-existence, so no chance of ending up in Hell?
> > > > On Oct 30, 12:27 am, lauren <lauren...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > I was thinking about my last post and I want to share this with you.
> > > > > I know you are going to laugh. What the heck? It’s okay. Go ahead.
> > > > > Laugh.
> > > > > You want to know what is scary to me about being an atheist? Its about
> > > > > when I’m dead. When you die you’re soooooo dead! You know? Dead like a
> > > > > donkey. You just lay there in the ground rotting away and the worms
> > > > > eat you up until only your bare bones are left.
> > > > > When I die I have this picture in my mind of leaving my body
> > > > > gracefully. It’s not me there in the ground. It’s just my body. And
> > > > > after all it was only temporary. No big deal. The ‘I’ am still around.
> > > > > That’s exciting!
> > > > > I have read a lot about these NDE’s. People say they had this
> > > > > experience of coming out of their bodies and having this feeling of
> > > > > absolute release. Don’t you think it is wonderful?
> > > > > I have this relationship with my heavenly Father. I talk to Him. I
> > > > > complain to Him. I ask Him things. You know, just like I used to do to
> > > > > with my dad. Sometimes he gives me what I want. Sometimes He doesn’t.
> > > > > Just like my dad used to do. He has this sort of obligation to look
> > > > > out for me and I trust Him.
> > > > > When I do something I’m proud of (read ‘something good’) I get this
> > > > > sense of serving a higher purpose. That’s rewarding. I like feeling
> > > > > like that.
> > > > > Whether I have been indoctrinated or not is not that important to me.
> > > > > I just don’t think I want to give all this up. This opium of the
> > > > > masses thing, you know. Religion. I’m all for it.
> > > > > So what if I am wrong. No harm done. In any case I’ll never know
> > > > > whether I was wrong, will I? On the other hand, if I was right, oh boy
> > > > > …
|
