mmmousemaid wrote: > On Oct 27, 9:21 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: >> Emma Anne wrote: >>> Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> mmmousemaid wrote:
>>>>> I think it's the old "is/ought" question is philosophy: you have to >>>>> accept the world as it is, even when it ought not to be that way in >>>>> some cases.
>>>> On the one hand - Reasonable men conform to the environment >>>> therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men.
>>> Not sure I agree. Accepting reality doesn't mean you don't change >>> things. I'd say the opposite. If you can see reality clearly, you know >>> what to change. If you are seeing things skewed, chances are you are >>> off spinning your wheels on something irrelevant. Or anyway, that's >>> what I was doing when I was deluding myself the worst. :-)
>> And also, if you can see reality clearly, you may know what needs >> changing, >> and may equally well know it ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes, if >> ever. >> At least in a fair number of instances, and albeit, sadly so.
I was talking about the reality of this world, and what's happened to it over the past half century.
Well, ok, maybe even over all time, for that matter. (reference: the "state of humanity", or rather, the lack thereof, n'est pas?)
> - if you can see reality clearly
You mean seeing much of the reality of *this* world? Ain't too hard to see, at least for me. I watch the world news to get some measure of it, too. It's downright depressing.
> - if reality can be disclosed
Oh, it is. And painfully so. Well, at least our perception of it. In the end, isn't everything we "see" our perception of it?
> - if reality can be perceived outside denials and rationalizations > - if reality can be known through counselling
Oh, we're talking about internally, and not globally, here? Ooops!
> - if reality is a long search that finally comes to revelation > - if reality about human relations is as clear as reality about facts
I can tell you about of the reality of some human relations in this world. But then again, I know you can, too, so I think we're on the same wavelength, at least some of the time.
> - if reality is constant
I'm not sure if it is or isn't. Hmmm. Is anything?
> - if reality is meaningful in human affairs
Now that one opens up a whole new discussion....
> - if there is a reality;
I don't know. Maybe it's all just a dream?
> I think it's pretty tough. But I have worked on it and it's da*n > interesting.
> mmmousemaid wrote: > > On Oct 27, 9:21 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > > wrote: > >> Emma Anne wrote: > >>> Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>> mmmousemaid wrote:
> >>>>> I think it's the old "is/ought" question is philosophy: you have to > >>>>> accept the world as it is, even when it ought not to be that way in > >>>>> some cases.
> >>>> On the one hand - Reasonable men conform to the environment > >>>> therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men.
> >>> Not sure I agree. Accepting reality doesn't mean you don't change > >>> things. I'd say the opposite. If you can see reality clearly, you know > >>> what to change. If you are seeing things skewed, chances are you are > >>> off spinning your wheels on something irrelevant. Or anyway, that's > >>> what I was doing when I was deluding myself the worst. :-)
> >> And also, if you can see reality clearly, you may know what needs > >> changing, > >> and may equally well know it ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes, if > >> ever. > >> At least in a fair number of instances, and albeit, sadly so.
> I was talking about the reality of this world, and what's happened to it > over the past half century.
> Well, ok, maybe even over all time, for that matter. (reference: the "state > of humanity", or rather, the lack thereof, n'est pas?)
> > - if you can see reality clearly
> You mean seeing much of the reality of *this* world? Ain't too hard to > see, at least for me. I watch the world news to get some measure of it, > too. It's downright depressing.
> > - if reality can be disclosed
> Oh, it is. And painfully so. Well, at least our perception of it. In > the end, isn't everything we "see" our perception of it?
> > - if reality can be perceived outside denials and rationalizations > > - if reality can be known through counselling
> Oh, we're talking about internally, and not globally, here? Ooops!
> > - if reality is a long search that finally comes to revelation > > - if reality about human relations is as clear as reality about facts
> I can tell you about of the reality of some human relations in this world. > But then again, I know you can, too, so I think we're on the same > wavelength, at least some of the time.
> > - if reality is constant
> I'm not sure if it is or isn't. Hmmm. Is anything?
> > - if reality is meaningful in human affairs
> Now that one opens up a whole new discussion....
> > - if there is a reality;
> I don't know. Maybe it's all just a dream?
> > I think it's pretty tough. But I have worked on it and it's da*n > > interesting.
> > Erin
> Indeed.
I mean that REALITY is a BIG word. Our lives are lived from moment to moment and focusing on situations is exclusive of so many factors that may be incidental or causal to any situation. You might say that human affairs when studied are like an "open system". In science controls make it much more certain to see reality. There is the Heisenberg uncertainty principle in physics, but you know maybe it applies to our perception of social interactions as well.
> mmmousemaid wrote: >> On Oct 27, 9:21 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> >> wrote: >>> Emma Anne wrote: >>>> Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> mmmousemaid wrote:
>>>>>> I think it's the old "is/ought" question is philosophy: you have to >>>>>> accept the world as it is, even when it ought not to be that way in >>>>>> some cases.
>>>>> On the one hand - Reasonable men conform to the environment >>>>> therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men.
>>>> Not sure I agree. Accepting reality doesn't mean you don't change >>>> things. I'd say the opposite. If you can see reality clearly, you know >>>> what to change. If you are seeing things skewed, chances are you are >>>> off spinning your wheels on something irrelevant. Or anyway, that's >>>> what I was doing when I was deluding myself the worst. :-)
>>> And also, if you can see reality clearly, you may know what needs >>> changing, >>> and may equally well know it ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes, if >>> ever. >>> At least in a fair number of instances, and albeit, sadly so.
> I was talking about the reality of this world, and what's happened to it > over the past half century.
> Well, ok, maybe even over all time, for that matter. (reference: the > "state of humanity", or rather, the lack thereof, n'est pas?)
>> - if you can see reality clearly
> You mean seeing much of the reality of *this* world? Ain't too hard to > see, at least for me. I watch the world news to get some measure of it, > too. It's downright depressing.
>> - if reality can be disclosed
> Oh, it is. And painfully so. Well, at least our perception of it. In > the end, isn't everything we "see" our perception of it?
>> - if reality can be perceived outside denials and rationalizations >> - if reality can be known through counselling
> Oh, we're talking about internally, and not globally, here? Ooops!
>> - if reality is a long search that finally comes to revelation >> - if reality about human relations is as clear as reality about facts
> I can tell you about of the reality of some human relations in this world. > But then again, I know you can, too, so I think we're on the same > wavelength, at least some of the time.
>> - if reality is constant
> I'm not sure if it is or isn't. Hmmm. Is anything?
>> - if reality is meaningful in human affairs
> Now that one opens up a whole new discussion....
>> - if there is a reality;
> I don't know. Maybe it's all just a dream?
I had a bizzaro dream last night. I was pregnant with what we thought was going to be a girl, then doc said it was going to be a boy. We had to think of a name fast and decided on Bram William M. Then we got a call that our escrow closed on a house (which turned out to be one of my cousins' house) so then we were moving in. And I realized my DH had lost his job and couldn't figure out how we were going to make payments. Then we (the five of us with pregnant me) were boarding a Cessna 152 (not enough seats) that my husband was flying. Took off and soon heavy rain was pelting the plane. Looked out the window and a huge thunder cell was descending on us, more like a solid object instead of cloudness, and I feared this solid cloud was going to hit the plane and we were going to die. DH got the plane barely around the cloud and we made it over the houses but were still going down. Then ended up plopped onto a hillock behind the homes. My alarm went off and the dream ended.
> > mmmousemaid wrote: > >> On Oct 27, 9:21 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > >> wrote: > >>> Emma Anne wrote: > >>>> Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>> mmmousemaid wrote:
> >>>>>> I think it's the old "is/ought" question is philosophy: you have to > >>>>>> accept the world as it is, even when it ought not to be that way in > >>>>>> some cases.
> >>>>> On the one hand - Reasonable men conform to the environment > >>>>> therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men.
> >>>> Not sure I agree. Accepting reality doesn't mean you don't change > >>>> things. I'd say the opposite. If you can see reality clearly, you know > >>>> what to change. If you are seeing things skewed, chances are you are > >>>> off spinning your wheels on something irrelevant. Or anyway, that's > >>>> what I was doing when I was deluding myself the worst. :-)
> >>> And also, if you can see reality clearly, you may know what needs > >>> changing, > >>> and may equally well know it ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes, if > >>> ever. > >>> At least in a fair number of instances, and albeit, sadly so.
> > I was talking about the reality of this world, and what's happened to it > > over the past half century.
> > Well, ok, maybe even over all time, for that matter. (reference: the > > "state of humanity", or rather, the lack thereof, n'est pas?)
> >> - if you can see reality clearly
> > You mean seeing much of the reality of *this* world? Ain't too hard to > > see, at least for me. I watch the world news to get some measure of it, > > too. It's downright depressing.
> >> - if reality can be disclosed
> > Oh, it is. And painfully so. Well, at least our perception of it. In > > the end, isn't everything we "see" our perception of it?
> >> - if reality can be perceived outside denials and rationalizations > >> - if reality can be known through counselling
> > Oh, we're talking about internally, and not globally, here? Ooops!
> >> - if reality is a long search that finally comes to revelation > >> - if reality about human relations is as clear as reality about facts
> > I can tell you about of the reality of some human relations in this world. > > But then again, I know you can, too, so I think we're on the same > > wavelength, at least some of the time.
> >> - if reality is constant
> > I'm not sure if it is or isn't. Hmmm. Is anything?
> >> - if reality is meaningful in human affairs
> > Now that one opens up a whole new discussion....
> >> - if there is a reality;
> > I don't know. Maybe it's all just a dream?
> I had a bizzaro dream last night. > I was pregnant with what we thought was going to be a girl, then doc said it > was going to be a boy. > We had to think of a name fast and decided on Bram William M. > Then we got a call that our escrow closed on a house (which turned out to be > one of my cousins' house) so then we were moving in. > And I realized my DH had lost his job and couldn't figure out how we were > going to make payments. > Then we (the five of us with pregnant me) were boarding a Cessna 152 (not > enough seats) that my husband was flying. Took off and soon heavy rain was > pelting the plane. > Looked out the window and a huge thunder cell was descending on us, more > like a solid object instead of cloudness, and I feared this solid cloud was > going to hit the plane and we were going to die. > DH got the plane barely around the cloud and we made it over the houses but > were still going down. Then ended up plopped onto a hillock behind the > homes. > My alarm went off and the dream ended.
> WTF? I just want to sleep!!!
> Vickie
> >> I think it's pretty tough. But I have worked on it and it's da*n > >> interesting.
> >> Erin
> > Indeed.
Really, WTF? Sleep is essential.
I went to a conference for a few days (and it was an inspiring conference!) and slept great---and the gods know, there's been lots of them weird dreams from then til now. Then I spent a couple nights sleeping on my son's couch (he lives where the conference was, so I stayed the weekend with him)--and all dreams were good. But often they're not.
So--what is your dream really about? The plane and flying and then the clouds that make it difficult to get there--those seem significant. Flying in dreams is escape or freedom, right?
Houses--home, stability...don't know shit about your cousin, but is there a connect there?
Babies...pregnancy....a girl then a boy...dunno?? Relates to a situation with kids you have?
Name is cool tho. Bram (ie Bram Stoker, writer of Dracula?) and William (Bill in Co?). I suspect the M is the abbreviation of your married lastname?
Dreams are cool, but often terrifying. I'm a dreamer, a nightmarer, and always have been. (ask my parents) I also used to sleepwalk...
My counsellor told me in my dreams, I can learn to take control. Haven't done too well at that, tho, not yet. The best I can do is wake up, but too many times I go back to sleep into the same dream (with permutations). Also, I *always* have a similar dream before starting teaching--if not each semester, definately each fall semester.
Ppl phoo=phoo Freud, but if you read his interpretation of dreams, I'd say he's onto something. And I think a lot boils down to our internal chemistry or neurology or whatever.
>>> mmmousemaid wrote: >>>> On Oct 27, 9:21 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> >>>> wrote: >>>>> Emma Anne wrote: >>>>>> Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> mmmousemaid wrote:
>>>>>>>> I think it's the old "is/ought" question is philosophy: you have to >>>>>>>> accept the world as it is, even when it ought not to be that way >>>>>>>> in some cases.
>>>>>>> On the one hand - Reasonable men conform to the environment >>>>>>> therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men.
>>>>>> Not sure I agree. Accepting reality doesn't mean you don't change >>>>>> things. I'd say the opposite. If you can see reality clearly, you >>>>>> know >>>>>> what to change. If you are seeing things skewed, chances are you are >>>>>> off spinning your wheels on something irrelevant. Or anyway, that's >>>>>> what I was doing when I was deluding myself the worst. :-)
>>>>> And also, if you can see reality clearly, you may know what needs >>>>> changing, >>>>> and may equally well know it ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes, if >>>>> ever. >>>>> At least in a fair number of instances, and albeit, sadly so.
>>> I was talking about the reality of this world, and what's happened to it >>> over the past half century.
>>> Well, ok, maybe even over all time, for that matter. (reference: the >>> "state of humanity", or rather, the lack thereof, n'est pas?)
>>>> - if you can see reality clearly
>>> You mean seeing much of the reality of *this* world? Ain't too hard to >>> see, at least for me. I watch the world news to get some measure of it, >>> too. It's downright depressing.
>>>> - if reality can be disclosed
>>> Oh, it is. And painfully so. Well, at least our perception of it. In >>> the end, isn't everything we "see" our perception of it?
>>>> - if reality can be perceived outside denials and rationalizations >>>> - if reality can be known through counselling
>>> Oh, we're talking about internally, and not globally, here? Ooops!
>>>> - if reality is a long search that finally comes to revelation >>>> - if reality about human relations is as clear as reality about facts
>>> I can tell you about of the reality of some human relations in this >>> world. >>> But then again, I know you can, too, so I think we're on the same >>> wavelength, at least some of the time.
>>>> - if reality is constant
>>> I'm not sure if it is or isn't. Hmmm. Is anything?
>>>> - if reality is meaningful in human affairs
>>> Now THAT one opens up a whole new discussion....
>>>> - if there is a reality;
>>> I don't know. Maybe it's all just a dream?
>> I had a bizzaro dream last night. >> I was pregnant with what we thought was going to be a girl, then doc >> said it was going to be a boy. >> We had to think of a name fast and decided on Bram William M. >> Then we got a call that our escrow closed on a house (which turned out >> to be one of my cousins' house) so then we were moving in. >> And I realized my DH had lost his job and couldn't figure out how we >> were going to make payments. >> Then we (the five of us with pregnant me) were boarding a Cessna 152 (not >> enough seats) that my husband was flying. Took off and soon heavy rain >> was pelting the plane. >> Looked out the window and a huge thunder cell was descending on us, more >> like a solid object instead of cloudness, and I feared this solid cloud >> was >> going to hit the plane and we were going to die. >> DH got the plane barely around the cloud and we made it over the houses >> but >> were still going down. Then ended up plopped onto a hillock behind the >> homes. My alarm went off and the dream ended.
>>>> I think it's pretty tough. But I have worked on it and it's da*n >>>> interesting.
>>>> Erin
>>> Indeed.
> Really, WTF? Sleep is essential.
> I went to a conference for a few days (and it was an inspiring > conference!) and slept great---and the gods know, there's been lots of > them weird dreams from then til now. Then I spent a couple nights > sleeping on my son's couch (he lives where the conference was, so I > stayed the weekend with him)--and all dreams were good. But often > they're not.
> So--what is your dream really about? The plane and flying and then > the clouds that make it difficult to get there--those seem > significant. Flying in dreams is escape or freedom, right?
> Houses--home, stability...don't know shit about your cousin, but is > there a connect there?
> Babies...pregnancy....a girl then a boy...dunno?? Relates to a > situation with kids you have?
> Name is cool tho. Bram (ie Bram Stoker, writer of Dracula?) and > William (Bill in Co?). I suspect the M is the abbreviation of your > married lastname?
> Dreams are cool, but often terrifying. I'm a dreamer, a nightmarer, > and always have been. (ask my parents) I also used to sleepwalk...
> My counsellor told me in my dreams, I can learn to take control.
In your dreams, or in RL? :-) Well, if you find out the secret, let us know. I'd give anything for being able to control my moods, and always be a happy lark, without a care in the world.
> Haven't done too well at that, tho, not yet. The best I can do is wake > up, but too many times I go back to sleep into the same dream (with > permutations). Also, I *always* have a similar dream before starting > teaching--if not each semester, definately each fall semester.
> Ppl phoo=phoo Freud, but if you read his interpretation of dreams, I'd > say he's onto something. And I think a lot boils down to our internal > chemistry or neurology or whatever.
But in all fairness to Freud, he came up with a lot of good stuff, too. It's too bad his name is always linked to the worst stuff.
> >>> mmmousemaid wrote: > >>>> On Oct 27, 9:21 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> Emma Anne wrote: > >>>>>> Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> mmmousemaid wrote:
> >>>>>>>> I think it's the old "is/ought" question is philosophy: you have to > >>>>>>>> accept the world as it is, even when it ought not to be that way > >>>>>>>> in some cases.
> >>>>>>> On the one hand - Reasonable men conform to the environment > >>>>>>> therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men.
> >>>>>> Not sure I agree. Accepting reality doesn't mean you don't change > >>>>>> things. I'd say the opposite. If you can see reality clearly, you > >>>>>> know > >>>>>> what to change. If you are seeing things skewed, chances are you are > >>>>>> off spinning your wheels on something irrelevant. Or anyway, that's > >>>>>> what I was doing when I was deluding myself the worst. :-)
> >>>>> And also, if you can see reality clearly, you may know what needs > >>>>> changing, > >>>>> and may equally well know it ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes, if > >>>>> ever. > >>>>> At least in a fair number of instances, and albeit, sadly so.
> >>> I was talking about the reality of this world, and what's happened to it > >>> over the past half century.
> >>> Well, ok, maybe even over all time, for that matter. (reference: the > >>> "state of humanity", or rather, the lack thereof, n'est pas?)
> >>>> - if you can see reality clearly
> >>> You mean seeing much of the reality of *this* world? Ain't too hard to > >>> see, at least for me. I watch the world news to get some measure of it, > >>> too. It's downright depressing.
> >>>> - if reality can be disclosed
> >>> Oh, it is. And painfully so. Well, at least our perception of it. In > >>> the end, isn't everything we "see" our perception of it?
> >>>> - if reality can be perceived outside denials and rationalizations > >>>> - if reality can be known through counselling
> >>> Oh, we're talking about internally, and not globally, here? Ooops!
> >>>> - if reality is a long search that finally comes to revelation > >>>> - if reality about human relations is as clear as reality about facts
> >>> I can tell you about of the reality of some human relations in this > >>> world. > >>> But then again, I know you can, too, so I think we're on the same > >>> wavelength, at least some of the time.
> >>>> - if reality is constant
> >>> I'm not sure if it is or isn't. Hmmm. Is anything?
> >>>> - if reality is meaningful in human affairs
> >>> Now THAT one opens up a whole new discussion....
> >>>> - if there is a reality;
> >>> I don't know. Maybe it's all just a dream?
> >> I had a bizzaro dream last night. > >> I was pregnant with what we thought was going to be a girl, then doc > >> said it was going to be a boy. > >> We had to think of a name fast and decided on Bram William M. > >> Then we got a call that our escrow closed on a house (which turned out > >> to be one of my cousins' house) so then we were moving in. > >> And I realized my DH had lost his job and couldn't figure out how we > >> were going to make payments. > >> Then we (the five of us with pregnant me) were boarding a Cessna 152 (not > >> enough seats) that my husband was flying. Took off and soon heavy rain > >> was pelting the plane. > >> Looked out the window and a huge thunder cell was descending on us, more > >> like a solid object instead of cloudness, and I feared this solid cloud > >> was > >> going to hit the plane and we were going to die. > >> DH got the plane barely around the cloud and we made it over the houses > >> but > >> were still going down. Then ended up plopped onto a hillock behind the > >> homes. My alarm went off and the dream ended.
> >> WTF? I just want to sleep!!!
> >> Vickie
> Sleeping pills can help.
What kinds> What kinds give you no dreams? Wake you up happy and refreshed????
> >>>> I think it's pretty tough. But I have worked on it and it's da*n > >>>> interesting.
> >>>> Erin
> >>> Indeed.
> > Really, WTF? Sleep is essential.
> > I went to a conference for a few days (and it was an inspiring > > conference!) and slept great---and the gods know, there's been lots of > > them weird dreams from then til now. Then I spent a couple nights > > sleeping on my son's couch (he lives where the conference was, so I > > stayed the weekend with him)--and all dreams were good. But often > > they're not.
> > So--what is your dream really about? The plane and flying and then > > the clouds that make it difficult to get there--those seem > > significant. Flying in dreams is escape or freedom, right?
> > Houses--home, stability...don't know shit about your cousin, but is > > there a connect there?
> > Babies...pregnancy....a girl then a boy...dunno?? Relates to a > > situation with kids you have?
> > Name is cool tho. Bram (ie Bram Stoker, writer of Dracula?) and > > William (Bill in Co?). I suspect the M is the abbreviation of your > > married lastname?
> > Dreams are cool, but often terrifying. I'm a dreamer, a nightmarer, > > and always have been. (ask my parents) I also used to sleepwalk...
> > My counsellor told me in my dreams, I can learn to take control.
> In your dreams, or in RL? :-)
LOL. No, my F2F couselor told me I could learn to take control in my dreams. So far, I'm earning a D-
> Well, if you find out the secret, let us know. I'd give anything for being > able to control my moods, and always be a happy lark, without a care in the > world.
Just what would you give to do that, Beams?
> > Haven't done too well at that, tho, not yet. The best I can do is wake > > up, but too many times I go back to sleep into the same dream (with > > permutations). Also, I *always* have a similar dream before starting > > teaching--if not each semester, definately each fall semester.
> > Ppl phoo=phoo Freud, but if you read his interpretation of dreams, I'd > > say he's onto something. And I think a lot boils down to our internal > > chemistry or neurology or whatever.
> But in all fairness to Freud, he came up with a lot of good stuff, too. > It's too bad his name is always linked to the worst stuff.
I actualy only see him linked to the good stuff. I think he got more right than most ppl in the last 100 years, and I say that without discredit or awe to their contributions--
phelbooth wrote: > On Nov 1, 8:44 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: >> phelbooth wrote: >>> On Oct 29, 8:39 am, "Vickie" <vkraj...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote in >>>> messagenews:DcydnSp6WO6SQHXXnZ2dnUVZ_t6dnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>>>>> mmmousemaid wrote: >>>>>> On Oct 27, 9:21 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Emma Anne wrote: >>>>>>>> Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> mmmousemaid wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I think it's the old "is/ought" question is philosophy: you have >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> accept the world as it is, even when it ought not to be that >>>>>>>>>> that way in some cases.
>>>>>>>>> On the one hand - Reasonable men conform to the environment >>>>>>>>> therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men.
>>>>>>>> Not sure I agree. Accepting reality doesn't mean you don't change >>>>>>>> things. I'd say the opposite. If you can see reality clearly, you >>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>> what to change. If you are seeing things skewed, chances are you >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> off spinning your wheels on something irrelevant. Or anyway, that's >>>>>>>> what I was doing when I was deluding myself the worst. :-)
>>>>>>> And also, if you can see reality clearly, you may know what >>>>>>> needs changing, >>>>>>> and may equally well know it ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes, if >>>>>>> ever. At least in a fair number of instances, and albeit, sadly so.
>>>>> I was talking about the reality of this world, and what's happened to >>>>> >>>>> to it over the past half century.
>>>>> Well, ok, maybe even over all time, for that matter. (reference: the >>>>> "state of humanity", or rather, the lack thereof, n'est pas?)
>>>>>> - if you can see reality clearly
>>>>> You mean seeing much of the reality of *this* world? Ain't too hard to >>>>> see, at least for me. I watch the world news to get some measure of >>>>> it, too. It's downright depressing!
>>>>>> - if reality can be disclosed
>>>>> Oh, it is. And painfully so. Well, at least our perception of it. In >>>>> the end, isn't everything we "see" our perception of it?
>>>>>> - if reality can be perceived outside denials and rationalizations >>>>>> - if reality can be known through counselling
>>>>> Oh, we're talking about internally, and not globally, here? Ooops!
>>>>>> - if reality is a long search that finally comes to revelation >>>>>> - if reality about human relations is as clear as reality about facts
>>>>> I can tell you about of the reality of some human relations in this >>>>> world. >>>>> But then again, I know you can, too, so I think we're on the same >>>>> wavelength, at least some of the time.
>>>>>> - if reality is constant
>>>>> I'm not sure if it is or isn't. Hmmm. Is anything?
>>>>>> - if reality is meaningful in human affairs
>>>>> Now THAT one opens up a whole new discussion....
>>>>>> - if there is a reality;
>>>>> I don't know. Maybe it's all just a dream?
>>>> I had a bizzaro dream last night. >>>> I was pregnant with what we thought was going to be a girl, then doc >>>> said it was going to be a boy. >>>> We had to think of a name fast and decided on Bram William M. >>>> Then we got a call that our escrow closed on a house (which turned >>>> out to be one of my cousins' house) so then we were moving in. >>>> And I realized my DH had lost his job and couldn't figure out how we >>>> were going to make payments. >>>> Then we (the five of us with pregnant me) were boarding a Cessna 152 >>>> (not >>>> enough seats) that my husband was flying. Took off and soon heavy >>>> rain was pelting the plane. >>>> Looked out the window and a huge thunder cell was descending on us, >>>> more >>>> like a solid object instead of cloudness, and I feared this solid cloud >>>> was going to hit the plane and we were going to die. >>>> DH got the plane barely around the cloud and we made it over the >>>> houses but >>>> were still going down. Then ended up plopped onto a hillock behind >>>> the homes. My alarm went off and the dream ended.
>>>> WTF? I just want to sleep!!!
>>>> Vickie
>> Sleeping pills can help.
> What kinds> What kinds give you no dreams?
No, I didn't mean that. But they can help you fall asleep. The over the counter ones, I mean. They don't eliminate dreams! Does anything? I don't think anything does (except staying awake :-). Besides which, I don't think it's a good thing (i.e., no dreams) for the sleeping state, medically speaking. It likely won't be a deep enough state, otherwise, to get a full and complete rest. (They have some designations for those states; don't ask me what they are, though)
> Wake you up happy and refreshed????
Ummm. No those pills can't exactly do that. :-) But they CAN enable you to more easily fall asleep, that's all.
>>>>>> I think it's pretty tough. But I have worked on it and it's da*n >>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>> Erin
>>>>> Indeed.
>>> Really, WTF? Sleep is essential.
>>> I went to a conference for a few days (and it was an inspiring >>> conference!) and slept great---and the gods know, there's been lots of >>> them weird dreams from then til now. Then I spent a couple nights >>> sleeping on my son's couch (he lives where the conference was, so I >>> stayed the weekend with him)--and all dreams were good. But often >>> they're not.
>>> So--what is your dream really about? The plane and flying and then >>> the clouds that make it difficult to get there--those seem >>> significant. Flying in dreams is escape or freedom, right?
>>> Houses--home, stability...don't know shit about your cousin, but is >>> there a connect there?
>>> Babies...pregnancy....a girl then a boy...dunno?? Relates to a >>> situation with kids you have?
>>> Name is cool tho. Bram (ie Bram Stoker, writer of Dracula?) and >>> William (Bill in Co?). I suspect the M is the abbreviation of your >>> married lastname?
>>> Dreams are cool, but often terrifying. I'm a dreamer, a nightmarer, >>> and always have been. (ask my parents) I also used to sleepwalk...
>>> My counsellor told me in my dreams, I can learn to take control.
>> In your dreams, or in RL? :-)
> LOL. No, my F2F couselor told me I could learn to take control in my > dreams. So far, I'm earning a D-
>> Well, if you find out the secret, let us know. I'd give anything for >> being >> able to control my moods, and always be a happy lark, without a care >> in the world.
> Just what would you give to do that, Beams?
My life? Not sure. I think they've outlawed lobotomies, haven't they? Remember "One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest"? Well, ok, that was a pretty pathetic state, on second thought. Forget that idea.
>>> Haven't done too well at that, tho, not yet. The best I can do is wake >>> up, but too many times I go back to sleep into the same dream (with >>> permutations). Also, I *always* have a similar dream before starting >>> teaching--if not each semester, definately each fall semester.
>>> Ppl phoo=phoo Freud, but if you read his interpretation of dreams, I'd >>> say he's onto something. And I think a lot boils down to our internal >>> chemistry or neurology or whatever.
>> But in all fairness to Freud, he came up with a lot of good stuff, too. >> It's too bad his name is always linked to the worst stuff.
> I actually only see him linked to the good stuff. I think he got more > right than most ppl in the last 100 years,
Ditto on Classical Music, by the way. And a few other things too, probably including the Arts (although you have to go back a bit further in time). :-)
> phelbooth wrote: > > On Nov 1, 8:44 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > > wrote: > >> phelbooth wrote: > >>> On Oct 29, 8:39 am, "Vickie" <vkraj...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>>> "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote in > >>>> messagenews:DcydnSp6WO6SQHXXnZ2dnUVZ_t6dnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> >>>>> mmmousemaid wrote: > >>>>>> On Oct 27, 9:21 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> Emma Anne wrote: > >>>>>>>> Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> mmmousemaid wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> I think it's the old "is/ought" question is philosophy: you have > >>>>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>> accept the world as it is, even when it ought not to be that > >>>>>>>>>> that way in some cases.
> >>>>>>>>> On the one hand - Reasonable men conform to the environment > >>>>>>>>> therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men.
> >>>>>>>> Not sure I agree. Accepting reality doesn't mean you don't change > >>>>>>>> things. I'd say the opposite. If you can see reality clearly, you > >>>>>>>> know > >>>>>>>> what to change. If you are seeing things skewed, chances are you > >>>>>>>> are > >>>>>>>> off spinning your wheels on something irrelevant. Or anyway, that's > >>>>>>>> what I was doing when I was deluding myself the worst. :-)
> >>>>>>> And also, if you can see reality clearly, you may know what > >>>>>>> needs changing, > >>>>>>> and may equally well know it ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes, if > >>>>>>> ever. At least in a fair number of instances, and albeit, sadly so.
> >>>>> I was talking about the reality of this world, and what's happened to > >>>>> >>>>> to it over the past half century.
> >>>>> Well, ok, maybe even over all time, for that matter. (reference: the > >>>>> "state of humanity", or rather, the lack thereof, n'est pas?)
> >>>>>> - if you can see reality clearly
> >>>>> You mean seeing much of the reality of *this* world? Ain't too hard to > >>>>> see, at least for me. I watch the world news to get some measure of > >>>>> it, too. It's downright depressing!
> >>>>>> - if reality can be disclosed
> >>>>> Oh, it is. And painfully so. Well, at least our perception of it. In > >>>>> the end, isn't everything we "see" our perception of it?
> >>>>>> - if reality can be perceived outside denials and rationalizations > >>>>>> - if reality can be known through counselling
> >>>>> Oh, we're talking about internally, and not globally, here? Ooops!
> >>>>>> - if reality is a long search that finally comes to revelation > >>>>>> - if reality about human relations is as clear as reality about facts
> >>>>> I can tell you about of the reality of some human relations in this > >>>>> world. > >>>>> But then again, I know you can, too, so I think we're on the same > >>>>> wavelength, at least some of the time.
> >>>>>> - if reality is constant
> >>>>> I'm not sure if it is or isn't. Hmmm. Is anything?
> >>>>>> - if reality is meaningful in human affairs
> >>>>> Now THAT one opens up a whole new discussion....
> >>>>>> - if there is a reality;
> >>>>> I don't know. Maybe it's all just a dream?
> >>>> I had a bizzaro dream last night. > >>>> I was pregnant with what we thought was going to be a girl, then doc > >>>> said it was going to be a boy. > >>>> We had to think of a name fast and decided on Bram William M. > >>>> Then we got a call that our escrow closed on a house (which turned > >>>> out to be one of my cousins' house) so then we were moving in. > >>>> And I realized my DH had lost his job and couldn't figure out how we > >>>> were going to make payments. > >>>> Then we (the five of us with pregnant me) were boarding a Cessna 152 > >>>> (not > >>>> enough seats) that my husband was flying. Took off and soon heavy > >>>> rain was pelting the plane. > >>>> Looked out the window and a huge thunder cell was descending on us, > >>>> more > >>>> like a solid object instead of cloudness, and I feared this solid cloud > >>>> was going to hit the plane and we were going to die. > >>>> DH got the plane barely around the cloud and we made it over the > >>>> houses but > >>>> were still going down. Then ended up plopped onto a hillock behind > >>>> the homes. My alarm went off and the dream ended.
> >>>> WTF? I just want to sleep!!!
> >>>> Vickie
> >> Sleeping pills can help.
> > What kinds> What kinds give you no dreams?
> No, I didn't mean that. But they can help you fall asleep. The over the > counter ones, I mean. They don't eliminate dreams! Does anything? I > don't think anything does (except staying awake :-). Besides which, I > don't think it's a good thing (i.e., no dreams) for the sleeping state, > medically speaking. It likely won't be a deep enough state, otherwise, to > get a full and complete rest. (They have some designations for those > states; don't ask me what they are, though)
> > Wake you up happy and refreshed????
> Ummm. No those pills can't exactly do that. :-) > But they CAN enable you to more easily fall asleep, that's all.
> >>>>>> I think it's pretty tough. But I have worked on it and it's da*n > >>>>>> interesting.
> >>>>>> Erin
> >>>>> Indeed.
> >>> Really, WTF? Sleep is essential.
> >>> I went to a conference for a few days (and it was an inspiring > >>> conference!) and slept great---and the gods know, there's been lots of > >>> them weird dreams from then til now. Then I spent a couple nights > >>> sleeping on my son's couch (he lives where the conference was, so I > >>> stayed the weekend with him)--and all dreams were good. But often > >>> they're not.
> >>> So--what is your dream really about? The plane and flying and then > >>> the clouds that make it difficult to get there--those seem > >>> significant. Flying in dreams is escape or freedom, right?
> >>> Houses--home, stability...don't know shit about your cousin, but is > >>> there a connect there?
> >>> Babies...pregnancy....a girl then a boy...dunno?? Relates to a > >>> situation with kids you have?
> >>> Name is cool tho. Bram (ie Bram Stoker, writer of Dracula?) and > >>> William (Bill in Co?). I suspect the M is the abbreviation of your > >>> married lastname?
> >>> Dreams are cool, but often terrifying. I'm a dreamer, a nightmarer, > >>> and always have been. (ask my parents) I also used to sleepwalk...
> >>> My counsellor told me in my dreams, I can learn to take control.
> >> In your dreams, or in RL? :-)
> > LOL. No, my F2F couselor told me I could learn to take control in my > > dreams. So far, I'm earning a D-
> >> Well, if you find out the secret, let us know. I'd give anything for > >> being > >> able to control my moods, and always be a happy lark, without a care > >> in the world.
> > Just what would you give to do that, Beams?
> My life? Not sure. > I think they've outlawed lobotomies, haven't they? > Remember "One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest"? Well, ok, that was a pretty > pathetic state, on second thought. Forget that idea.
> >>> Haven't done too well at that, tho, not yet. The best I can do is wake > >>> up, but too many times I go back to sleep into the same dream (with > >>> permutations). Also, I *always* have a similar dream before starting > >>> teaching--if not each semester, definately each fall semester.
> >>> Ppl phoo=phoo Freud, but if you read his interpretation of dreams, I'd > >>> say he's onto something. And I think a lot boils down to our internal > >>> chemistry or neurology or whatever.
> >> But in all fairness to Freud, he came up with a lot of good stuff, too. > >> It's too bad his name is always linked to the worst stuff.
> > I actually only see him linked to the good stuff. I think he got more > > right than most ppl in the last 100 years,
> Ditto on Classical Music, by the way. And a few other things too, probably > including the Arts (although you have to go back a bit further in time). > :-)
> > and I say that without discredit or awe to their contributions--
Sometimes a link falls in your lap. I've been reading about The Great Purge. I know little of history. What's curious about this interesting book, is that I can't recall how I got the reference to it -- from the net, i know that. From a cultural point of view and its influence, it is something I have never considered before.
> On Nov 1, 10:39 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote:
> > phelbooth wrote: > > > On Nov 1, 8:44 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > > > wrote: > > >> phelbooth wrote: > > >>> On Oct 29, 8:39 am, "Vickie" <vkraj...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >>>> "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote in > > >>>> messagenews:DcydnSp6WO6SQHXXnZ2dnUVZ_t6dnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> > >>>>> mmmousemaid wrote: > > >>>>>> On Oct 27, 9:21 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > > >>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>> Emma Anne wrote: > > >>>>>>>> Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> mmmousemaid wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>> I think it's the old "is/ought" question is philosophy: you have > > >>>>>>>>>> to > > >>>>>>>>>> accept the world as it is, even when it ought not to be that > > >>>>>>>>>> that way in some cases.
> > >>>>>>>>> On the one hand - Reasonable men conform to the environment > > >>>>>>>>> therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men.
> > >>>>>>>> Not sure I agree. Accepting reality doesn't mean you don't change > > >>>>>>>> things. I'd say the opposite. If you can see reality clearly, you > > >>>>>>>> know > > >>>>>>>> what to change. If you are seeing things skewed, chances are you > > >>>>>>>> are > > >>>>>>>> off spinning your wheels on something irrelevant. Or anyway, that's > > >>>>>>>> what I was doing when I was deluding myself the worst. :-)
> > >>>>>>> And also, if you can see reality clearly, you may know what > > >>>>>>> needs changing, > > >>>>>>> and may equally well know it ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes, if > > >>>>>>> ever. At least in a fair number of instances, and albeit, sadly so.
> > >>>>> I was talking about the reality of this world, and what's happened to > > >>>>> >>>>> to it over the past half century.
> > >>>>> Well, ok, maybe even over all time, for that matter. (reference: the > > >>>>> "state of humanity", or rather, the lack thereof, n'est pas?)
> > >>>>>> - if you can see reality clearly
> > >>>>> You mean seeing much of the reality of *this* world? Ain't too hard to > > >>>>> see, at least for me. I watch the world news to get some measure of > > >>>>> it, too. It's downright depressing!
> > >>>>>> - if reality can be disclosed
> > >>>>> Oh, it is. And painfully so. Well, at least our perception of it. In > > >>>>> the end, isn't everything we "see" our perception of it?
> > >>>>>> - if reality can be perceived outside denials and rationalizations > > >>>>>> - if reality can be known through counselling
> > >>>>> Oh, we're talking about internally, and not globally, here? Ooops!
> > >>>>>> - if reality is a long search that finally comes to revelation > > >>>>>> - if reality about human relations is as clear as reality about facts
> > >>>>> I can tell you about of the reality of some human relations in this > > >>>>> world. > > >>>>> But then again, I know you can, too, so I think we're on the same > > >>>>> wavelength, at least some of the time.
> > >>>>>> - if reality is constant
> > >>>>> I'm not sure if it is or isn't. Hmmm. Is anything?
> > >>>>>> - if reality is meaningful in human affairs
> > >>>>> Now THAT one opens up a whole new discussion....
> > >>>>>> - if there is a reality;
> > >>>>> I don't know. Maybe it's all just a dream?
> > >>>> I had a bizzaro dream last night. > > >>>> I was pregnant with what we thought was going to be a girl, then doc > > >>>> said it was going to be a boy. > > >>>> We had to think of a name fast and decided on Bram William M. > > >>>> Then we got a call that our escrow closed on a house (which turned > > >>>> out to be one of my cousins' house) so then we were moving in. > > >>>> And I realized my DH had lost his job and couldn't figure out how we > > >>>> were going to make payments. > > >>>> Then we (the five of us with pregnant me) were boarding a Cessna 152 > > >>>> (not > > >>>> enough seats) that my husband was flying. Took off and soon heavy > > >>>> rain was pelting the plane. > > >>>> Looked out the window and a huge thunder cell was descending on us, > > >>>> more > > >>>> like a solid object instead of cloudness, and I feared this solid cloud > > >>>> was going to hit the plane and we were going to die. > > >>>> DH got the plane barely around the cloud and we made it over the > > >>>> houses but > > >>>> were still going down. Then ended up plopped onto a hillock behind > > >>>> the homes. My alarm went off and the dream ended.
> > >>>> WTF? I just want to sleep!!!
> > >>>> Vickie
> > >> Sleeping pills can help.
> > > What kinds> What kinds give you no dreams?
> > No, I didn't mean that. But they can help you fall asleep. The over the > > counter ones, I mean. They don't eliminate dreams! Does anything? I > > don't think anything does (except staying awake :-). Besides which, I > > don't think it's a good thing (i.e., no dreams) for the sleeping state, > > medically speaking. It likely won't be a deep enough state, otherwise, to > > get a full and complete rest. (They have some designations for those > > states; don't ask me what they are, though)
> > > Wake you up happy and refreshed????
> > Ummm. No those pills can't exactly do that. :-) > > But they CAN enable you to more easily fall asleep, that's all.
> > >>>>>> I think it's pretty tough. But I have worked on it and it's da*n > > >>>>>> interesting.
> > >>>>>> Erin
> > >>>>> Indeed.
> > >>> Really, WTF? Sleep is essential.
> > >>> I went to a conference for a few days (and it was an inspiring > > >>> conference!) and slept great---and the gods know, there's been lots of > > >>> them weird dreams from then til now. Then I spent a couple nights > > >>> sleeping on my son's couch (he lives where the conference was, so I > > >>> stayed the weekend with him)--and all dreams were good. But often > > >>> they're not.
> > >>> So--what is your dream really about? The plane and flying and then > > >>> the clouds that make it difficult to get there--those seem > > >>> significant. Flying in dreams is escape or freedom, right?
> > >>> Houses--home, stability...don't know shit about your cousin, but is > > >>> there a connect there?
> > >>> Babies...pregnancy....a girl then a boy...dunno?? Relates to a > > >>> situation with kids you have?
> > >>> Name is cool tho. Bram (ie Bram Stoker, writer of Dracula?) and > > >>> William (Bill in Co?). I suspect the M is the abbreviation of your > > >>> married lastname?
> > >>> Dreams are cool, but often terrifying. I'm a dreamer, a nightmarer, > > >>> and always have been. (ask my parents) I also used to sleepwalk...
> > >>> My counsellor told me in my dreams, I can learn to take control.
> > >> In your dreams, or in RL? :-)
> > > LOL. No, my F2F couselor told me I could learn to take control in my > > > dreams. So far, I'm earning a D-
> > >> Well, if you find out the secret, let us know. I'd give anything for > > >> being > > >> able to control my moods, and always be a happy lark, without a care > > >> in the world.
> > > Just what would you give to do that, Beams?
> > My life? Not sure. > > I think they've outlawed lobotomies, haven't they? > > Remember "One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest"? Well, ok, that was a pretty > > pathetic state, on second thought. Forget that idea.
> > >>> Haven't done too well at that, tho, not yet. The best I can do is wake > > >>> up, but too many times I go back to sleep into the same dream (with > > >>> permutations). Also, I *always* have a similar dream before starting > > >>> teaching--if not each semester, definately each fall semester.
> > >>> Ppl phoo=phoo Freud, but if you read his interpretation of dreams, I'd > > >>> say he's onto something. And I think a lot boils down to our internal > > >>> chemistry or neurology or whatever.
> > >> But in all fairness to Freud, he came up with a lot of good stuff, too. > > >> It's too bad his name is always linked to the worst stuff.
> > > I actually only see him linked to the good stuff. I think he got more > > > right than most ppl in the last 100 years,
> > Ditto on Classical Music, by the way. And a few other things too, probably > > including the Arts (although you have to go back a bit further in time). > > :-)
> > > and I say that without discredit or awe to their contributions--
> Sometimes a link falls in your lap. I've been reading about The Great > Purge. > I know little of history. What's curious about this interesting book, > is that I > can't recall how I got the reference to it -- from the net, i know > that. From a > cultural point of view and its influence, it is something I have never > considered before.
> Mmmousemaid
Even Pavlov knew, that animals with a certain temperament are susceptible to intimidation. Sometimes you wonder, where did some people get these unsalable convictions-- from childhood --by authoritative parents or guardians whom they could not question due to their type from birth. The theory of the four humours may not have been so far off.
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