Dr Nancy's Sweetie wrote: > "mon <nos...@aol.com>" wrote: >> I agree that some people are evil but I do believe good and evil >> people were born that way.
> and
>> Why would you be surprised? The yin and yang works here. I have >> not forgotten that. There are good people born to balance out the evil >> people born. I believe nature the stage to create that balance.
> Nobody ever believes that they are the bad guy. Everybody has their > reasons for what they do, no matter how much harm it causes or how horrid > it appears to others. They see some larger good they are serving, and > believe that shining future to which they work justifies the troubles > of the present.
> There is no line between good people and bad people. The line between > good and evil runs right down the middle of every one of us.
I don't completely agree. While there is some truth to that, there is also some truth to the another viewpoint, too. So, it's a bit too simplistic and idealistic.
> The delusion that you are somehow different than those who do evil > deeds is the principle necessity for committing evil deeds yourself.
Actually, I think it's *principal* necessity - and not "principle" necessity. Eng 101. "Principle" is not an adjective.
> You are no different; you are not somehow perfect and sinless; in the > same circumstances, you might do the same things.
> Os Guinness wrote a book about evil, titled _Unspeakable_. One of the > things he says is:
> The monster view of evil is dangerous, because it simultaneously > seduces and distances us. Often we have a strange fascination with > wicked people, but through them we can also push evil away because > "we are not like them". > To restrict evil to such men is to slip into the error of > seeing it as an aberration, a rarity, an exception, as something > well distanced from ourselves and also perhaps also as a think of > the past. To think like that is to miss the real menace of evil > here and now.
> Sometimes, when a Jeffrey Dahmer is caught by police and his crimes > become known, the neighbors say things like "He seemed so normal". > That is exactly the point: he was basically normal.
Yes, watching the interview was almost surreal.
> The capacity for > horrible crimes lurks inside everyone. Stanley Milgram's famous > experiment made clear that "normal" people will do horrible things > under the right circumstances.
Not all of them did. Nope.
> In his book, Guinness tells the story of Gary Haugen, who went to Rwanda > to investigate the genocide that occurred there. In an interview with > _Christianity Today_, Haugen said:
> Ordinary people have the capacity, with surprising ease, to become > mass murderers. The people who did the hacking in Rwanda were > average people. They had delivered themselves over to the power of > evil that can make killing exhilarating and empowering.
> People who do terrible things are not monsters.
I beg to differ. Serial killers (for just one example) most certainly are. And yes, that includes Dahmer (despite his other personality).
> For the most part, they are no different than you are.
> Until the moment when they do their > first horrible thing, they may well be indistinguishable from you.
> There is no "balance" between good people born and evil people born; > that's just a comforting lie that lets you imagine that you're somehow > above "those people" who have done bad things. But that comforting lie > is one of the very things that makes evil possible: if you're not a bad > person, you don't have to question your own motives and face honestly > the results of your actions.
> And that failure to question one's self is exactly how people commit evil > acts and rationalize away the truth of what they are doing. I'd wager > that every truly evil person believed in "good people" and "bad people", > resting comfortable in the knowledge that they were "good", even as they > did horrible things.
> Darren Provine ! kil...@elvis.rowan.edu ! http://www.rowan.edu/~kilroy > And, behold, one came and said unto him, "Good Master, what good thing > shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" > And he said unto him, "Why callest thou me good? there is none good > but one, that is, God[.]" -- Matthew 19:16-17
mon wrote: > Michaela wrote: >> mon wrote: >>> I agree that some people are evil but I do believe good and evil >>> people were born that way.
>> And I think some people just aren't aware that they have choice. >> Or they find a way to justify why they want to steal/kill/whatever. >> Or they just want something more than you did (which is a typically >> Buddhist perspective afaik). Or. Or. Or.
>> And so, sometimes we are influenced by --at first-- our parents or >> --later on-- our peers. Or we're just plain desperate.
>>> When it comes to intelligence, good, evil, sexual orientation, and >>> similar attributes, I think nature sets the rules before nurturing >>> takes place.
>>> mon
>> Wasn't it you who gave me another way to look at Danny De Vito's >> behaviour in the movie "Other People's Money"? i.e. re capitalism
> Yes it was.
>> (I'll find the thread if necessary.)
> No need. I remember.
>> If it was, I am rather surpried at your response here. It seemed then >> that you were reminding me that within yin there is yang and within >> yang there is yin... but here you seem to be the one who has >> forgotten that.
> Why would you be surprised? The yin and yang works here. I have > not forgotten that. There are good people born to balance out the > evil people born.
How can we even begin to divide the world into "good" and "bad" people?
I believe nature the stage to create that balance.
> The only thing I mentioned was that I believe (others may not and that > is OK) that people are born with predisposed mental attributes > just like physical attributes (e.g. good or evil, brown or blond > hair, big ears or small ears).
> In addition, I am not ruling out that parents and peers do not > influence an individuals past, present and future attitudes to > make good, bad or evil choices.
> I look at it this way, nature made sure Jimmy (fictional > character here) had brown hair when he was born, but his > high stress family and work environment made him have bald > spots at the age of 25. This happened to my friend Bill, > and now that he is out of his high stress is gone, he > has a full head of hair at the age of 38.
Had he the "right" influences Jimmy might have learnt early on to become detached and not allowed his family to get him down.
Michaela wrote: > mon wrote: >> Michaela wrote: >>> mon wrote: >>>> I agree that some people are evil but I do believe good and evil >>>> people were born that way.
>>> And I think some people just aren't aware that they have choice. >>> Or they find a way to justify why they want to steal/kill/whatever. >>> Or they just want something more than you did (which is a typically >>> Buddhist perspective afaik). Or. Or. Or.
>>> And so, sometimes we are influenced by --at first-- our parents or >>> --later on-- our peers. Or we're just plain desperate.
>>>> When it comes to intelligence, good, evil, sexual orientation, and >>>> similar attributes, I think nature sets the rules before nurturing >>>> takes place.
>>>> mon
>>> Wasn't it you who gave me another way to look at Danny De Vito's >>> behaviour in the movie "Other People's Money"? i.e. re capitalism
>> Yes it was.
>>> (I'll find the thread if necessary.)
>> No need. I remember.
>>> If it was, I am rather surpried at your response here. It seemed then >>> that you were reminding me that within yin there is yang and within >>> yang there is yin... but here you seem to be the one who has >>> forgotten that.
>> Why would you be surprised? The yin and yang works here. I have >> not forgotten that. There are good people born to balance out the >> evil people born.
> How can we even begin to divide the world into "good" and "bad" > people?
That's not too difficult. At least for some cases. And we've already covered some.
> Reading Erin's troubles with the presence of evil in the world, I thought > that the answer given by GROW (the Australian 12-step group network, > started by a Catholic priest) was worth repeating:
> Most of us stopped asking that question long ago. It stops us from getting > better. It shifts the blame to God, and absolves us of the responsibility > of developing our characters to deal with it.
> No answer. Just don't ask the question. Taoism as expressed in "The Tao of > Poh" is full of the same theme: Don't ask unnecessary questions. Don't > waste government money on research which increases knowledge with no > practical application. Don't worry about "the world" being evil, because > the world is something you can't change. Yourself, you can change (within > limits, but pessimism isn't one of them.)
> Doug L.
I like this post. The responses are thick, but hey, I like the post Doug.
Asking the question surely leads to thinking about things most people dasn't.
(yes Bill, dasn't is a word, or was...)
What are the logical answers to this question? God doesn't remove all evil because ________________________________ 1. S/He/It (say that really fast, lol) wants humans to kill other humans and destroy those made in Her/His/Its Image 2. God didn't think about things in terms of good/evil 3. What is evil to some is good to others 4. All of the above 5. And so much more
phelbooth wrote: > On Jul 24, 7:21 pm, Doug Laidlaw <d...@dougshost.invalid> wrote: >> Reading Erin's troubles with the presence of evil in the world, I thought >> that the answer given by GROW (the Australian 12-step group network, >> started by a Catholic priest) was worth repeating:
>> Most of us stopped asking that question long ago. It stops us from >> getting >> better. It shifts the blame to God, and absolves us of the responsibility >> of developing our characters to deal with it.
>> No answer. Just don't ask the question. Taoism as expressed in "The Tao >> of >> Poh" is full of the same theme: Don't ask unnecessary questions. Don't >> waste government money on research which increases knowledge with no >> practical application. Don't worry about "the world" being evil, because >> the world is something you can't change. Yourself, you can change (within >> limits, but pessimism isn't one of them.)
>> Doug L.
> I like this post. The responses are thick, but hey, I like the post > Doug.
> Asking the question surely leads to thinking about things most people > dasn't.
> (yes Bill, dasn't is a word, or was...)
> What are the logical answers to this question? > God doesn't remove all evil because ________________________________ > 1. S/He/It (say that really fast, lol) wants humans to kill other > humans and destroy those made in Her/His/Its Image > 2. God didn't think about things in terms of good/evil > 3. What is evil to some is good to others > 4. All of the above > 5. And so much more
>> Because God gave us Free Will. We are free to follow Him, love Him and >> one another, to do right - or we can follow the devil and be evil.
>> It is the evil that people see and blame on God.
>> How many of us have made the wrong choices? Can we then blame God for >> the poor outcome? We pray and think he says no. He may have said >> wait. He may have something better for us.
>> How many of us become impatient and turn our backs on God? Once we've >> done that, we're open to the evil that comes our way.
>> We made the evil. Not God.
>> Judi- Hide quoted text -
>> - Show quoted text -
> I agree with most of what you say, but I have trouble sometimes with > the last part, "We made the evil. Not God." I'm not so sure about > that. If you read in the Old Testament, Lucifer, was once an > angel...who was created by God. He fell from grace and was cast out. > So, this being created by God, turned evil and is now responsible for > the evil in mankind. Thus, I can't agree that WE made the evil. It > is traceable back to the creator. He made everything. As to why, I > cannot exactly answer that. I think we all have a "purpose" in life > and are being prepared for the next. Without evil in the world, > basically we would have just started out in heaven. There would be no > death, for it was evil that brought that on in Genesis. I think we > are being prepared for whatever lies in the afterlife and I think the > evil may have been necessary to some extent to cause us to learn and > realize the good and to set our paths toward it. Deep thoughts...
Yes, I am aware of where Lucifer came from. WE choose evil, or we spurn it. We therefore make it for ourselves if we choose that way.
Yes, the afterlife...and there are just too many that think we oozed up from mud through germs through whatever. So there are far too many that do not think evil exists. Only their desires and what it takes to reach that end. No matter the evils they must bestow on others.
But, in each life sorrow must visit for one to ever know what real happiness is.
> phelbooth wrote: > > On Jul 24, 7:21 pm, Doug Laidlaw <d...@dougshost.invalid> wrote: > >> Reading Erin's troubles with the presence of evil in the world, I thought > >> that the answer given by GROW (the Australian 12-step group network, > >> started by a Catholic priest) was worth repeating:
> >> Most of us stopped asking that question long ago. It stops us from > >> getting > >> better. It shifts the blame to God, and absolves us of the responsibility > >> of developing our characters to deal with it.
> >> No answer. Just don't ask the question. Taoism as expressed in "The Tao > >> of > >> Poh" is full of the same theme: Don't ask unnecessary questions. Don't > >> waste government money on research which increases knowledge with no > >> practical application. Don't worry about "the world" being evil, because > >> the world is something you can't change. Yourself, you can change (within > >> limits, but pessimism isn't one of them.)
> >> Doug L.
> > I like this post. The responses are thick, but hey, I like the post > > Doug.
> > Asking the question surely leads to thinking about things most people > > dasn't.
> > (yes Bill, dasn't is a word, or was...)
> > What are the logical answers to this question? > > God doesn't remove all evil because ________________________________ > > 1. S/He/It (say that really fast, lol) wants humans to kill other > > humans and destroy those made in Her/His/Its Image > > 2. God didn't think about things in terms of good/evil > > 3. What is evil to some is good to others > > 4. All of the above > > 5. And so much more
> Or maybe there isn't a God? We just don't know.- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
Holy Schmoly! Batman! Maybe there isn't evil either? Nah, just kiddin' Bill. I think evil schtuff happens. What I don't know is if it's like part of the biological sensibility. Not social Darwin but Darwin. In which case we can't call it "evil"--ah, there's the rub--
Oh man. I'm going to grade a paper or something, and talk with you , beams, tomorrow. (by the way, did I tell you my Moonbeam was replanted, deeper, and took really well? Continues to beam today? I'd send you a pix if I could...oh Elusive One)
phelbooth wrote: > On Jul 29, 6:26 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: >> phelbooth wrote: >>> On Jul 24, 7:21 pm, Doug Laidlaw <d...@dougshost.invalid> wrote: >>>> Reading Erin's troubles with the presence of evil in the world, I >>>> thought >>>> that the answer given by GROW (the Australian 12-step group network, >>>> started by a Catholic priest) was worth repeating:
>>>> Most of us stopped asking that question long ago. It stops us from >>>> getting >>>> better. It shifts the blame to God, and absolves us of the >>>> responsibility >>>> of developing our characters to deal with it.
>>>> No answer. Just don't ask the question. Taoism as expressed in "The Tao >>>> of >>>> Poh" is full of the same theme: Don't ask unnecessary questions. Don't >>>> waste government money on research which increases knowledge with no >>>> practical application. Don't worry about "the world" being evil, >>>> because >>>> the world is something you can't change. Yourself, you can change >>>> (within >>>> limits, but pessimism isn't one of them.)
>>>> Doug L.
>>> I like this post. The responses are thick, but hey, I like the post >>> Doug.
>>> Asking the question surely leads to thinking about things most people >>> dasn't.
>>> (yes Bill, dasn't is a word, or was...)
>>> What are the logical answers to this question? >>> God doesn't remove all evil because ________________________________ >>> 1. S/He/It (say that really fast, lol) wants humans to kill other >>> humans and destroy those made in Her/His/Its Image >>> 2. God didn't think about things in terms of good/evil >>> 3. What is evil to some is good to others >>> 4. All of the above >>> 5. And so much more
>> Or maybe there isn't a God? We just don't know.
> Holy Schmoly! Batman! Maybe there isn't evil either?
There most certainly is evil. Haven't I discussed that enough, already???? You want even MORE examples for today??? :-)
> Nah, just kiddin' Bill. I think evil schtuff happens. What I don't > know is if it's like part of the biological sensibility. Not social > Darwin but Darwin. In which case we can't call it "evil"--ah, there's > the rub--
I'm still calling it evil, regardless of "religion".
> Oh man. I'm going to grade a paper or something, and talk with you , > beams, tomorrow. > (by the way, did I tell you my Moonbeam was replanted, deeper, and > took really well? Continues to beam today? I'd send you a pix if I > could...oh Elusive One)
LOL. Yes I am. "The Shadow knows...." But you can ask Margo, my faithful assistant, for an appointment. :-)
> phelbooth wrote: > > On Jul 29, 6:26 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > > wrote: > >> phelbooth wrote: > >>> On Jul 24, 7:21 pm, Doug Laidlaw <d...@dougshost.invalid> wrote: > >>>> Reading Erin's troubles with the presence of evil in the world, I > >>>> thought > >>>> that the answer given by GROW (the Australian 12-step group network, > >>>> started by a Catholic priest) was worth repeating:
> >>>> Most of us stopped asking that question long ago. It stops us from > >>>> getting > >>>> better. It shifts the blame to God, and absolves us of the > >>>> responsibility > >>>> of developing our characters to deal with it.
> >>>> No answer. Just don't ask the question. Taoism as expressed in "The Tao > >>>> of > >>>> Poh" is full of the same theme: Don't ask unnecessary questions. Don't > >>>> waste government money on research which increases knowledge with no > &
